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#37535 Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:37 PM
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Jimbo Offline OP
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I had a discussion with a Dispensationalist about the Holy Spirit in the OT and I was told that there was no indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the OT. Of course, as one holds to Covenant Theology I strongly disagreed. For instance... was there not "perseverance of the saints" in the OT? I thought this would be interesting to discuss. So.... discuss. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/chatter.gif" alt="" />


Jimbo

Revelation 4:11
Jimbo #37536 Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:34 AM
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Since the only way New Testament believers are sanctified was "with might by His Spirit in the inner man (Eph 3:16)" it follows that believers in the Old Testament were sanctified in the same way.

Since justification is (and always has been) by faith which is the gift of God by which Christ dwells in our hearts (Eph 3:17), why would it be different under the Old Testament? We look back in time with faith to the Cross, while the Old Testament saints looked forward with faith to the Cross. But the faith itself, the gospel, the God Who justisfies and sanctifies both groups has always done so by faith. Indeed neither saving faith nor sanctification is possible except by the Spirit's indwelling presence.

Robin #37537 Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:18 PM
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Quote
Robin said:
Since the only way New Testament believers are sanctified was "with might by His Spirit in the inner man (Eph 3:16)" it follows that believers in the Old Testament were sanctified in the same way.

Since justification is (and always has been) by faith which is the gift of God by which Christ dwells in our hearts (Eph 3:17), why would it be different under the Old Testament? We look back in time with faith to the Cross, while the Old Testament saints looked forward with faith to the Cross. But the faith itself, the gospel, the God Who justisfies and sanctifies both groups has always done so by faith. Indeed neither saving faith nor sanctification is possible except by the Spirit's indwelling presence.

Could we say that NT saints are in a greater "dispensation" of the Covenant of Grace (to use the language of Charles Hodge.) Every NT believer receives the fullness of the Spirit at conversion. In the OT, saints were regenerate, but not filled with the Holy Spirit (the Spirit was not their other Helper.) The Scriptures seems to point out that the prophets, kings, the skilled workmen that built the tabernacle were special recipients of the Holy Spirit in the OT.

How would we explain these Scriptures?

John 14:15-17 ESV "If you love me, you will keep my commandments. (16) And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, (17) even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

Were the disciples regenerate at this time? I think so. Yet, Jesus told his disciples that they knew the Holy Spirit since He dwelled with them, but in the future would be in them.

John 7:37-39 ESV On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. (38) Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, 'Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.'" (39) Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Here, Jesus affirms that the Holy Spirit had not yet been given in some sense. Were there no regenerate individuals there at the time? I think there were. If so, this should point to a future blessing that comes about as a result of the death of the Son of God.

Act 1:4-5 ESV And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, "you heard from me; (5) for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

The disciples were regenerate. But there was a special promise that was to be given to them.

How else may we interpret these Scriptures? (This is a serious question.)

Blessings,

Kevin


“All that may be known of God for our salvation, especially his wisdom, love, goodness, grace and mercy on which the life of a soul depends, are represented to us in all their splendour in and through Christ.” John Owen
Jimbo #37538 Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:37 PM
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No Holy Spirit in the O. T.is a common misconception because Jesus said if he did not go away the comforter could not come.The words Holy Spirit are not found in the O. T. very often but the words Lord & God are, and the meaning is the same. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given. We know that
the Spirit is eternal; but the Evangelist declares that, so
long as Christ dwelt in the world in the form of a
servant, that grace of the Spirit, which was poured out on
men after the resurrection of Christ, had not been openly
manifested. And, indeed, he speaks comparatively, in the
same manner as when the New Testament is compared to the
Old. God promises his Spirit to his elect and believers,
as if he had never given him to the Fathers. At that
very time, the disciples had undoubtedly received the
Spirit; for where comes faith but from
the Spirit? The Evangelist, therefore, does not
affirm that the grace of the Spirit was not offered and
given to believers before the death of Christ, but
that it was not yet so bright and illustrious as it would
afterwards become. David asked God not to take the Holy Spirit from him Psalm 51:11, God said to Moses "Take Joshua, a man in whom is the Spirit" NAS bible, Numbers 27:18.. There are several others but you only have to establish a precedence once.

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You answered your own question, i think?, when you quote "you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now" this was the miraculous out poring of the Spirit on the day of Pentecost with a mighty wind, tongues like fire, and speaking in tongues, which i believe Jesus was refering to earlier, not to say that all believers are not baptized with the Holy Spirit, just not in the same way.

Jim_M #37540 Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:15 PM
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Speaking of the baptism of the Holy Spirit:Ephesians 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
Could baptism of the Holy Spirit be the one baptism referred to in Ephesians 4:5 of which baptism of water is just one of many signs of that baptism?
If the one baptism in Ephesians 4:5 is water baptism then what is Holy Spirit baptism? They are not the same are they? Concerning salvation, Holy Spirit baptism must happen before water baptism, right? Unless it is a special baptism for a special purpose which may happen at any time God sees fit.
First Corinthians 12:13 for we are all baptized by one Spirit into one body whether Jews are Greeks, slave or free and we are all given the one Spirit to drank.
Could it be that our minds are so attuned to thanking of baptism as relating to water that we are missing a simple idea that it may have to do primarily with spiritual baptism most of the time, with no reference to water baptism whenever? Are we looking at it from a physical aspect rather than spiritually, the same way we tend to do the rest of Scripture?

Jim_M #37541 Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:19 AM
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Ephesians 4:5 in context is a reference to the unity of believers in the Spirit. Christ has brought down the barrier that divided Jew from Gentile. Both believing Jews and believing Gentiles have one Lord, one faith, etc.

His reference to baptism may be related to his earlier reference in the same letter to circumcision (2:11-22) which was an outward sign and seal of one's covenant relationship with God. Water baptism is the New Testament representation of the same thing.

You appear to assume that Holy Spirit baptism must precede water baptism, but you'll get an argument from those of us who practice covenant baptism as well as believer's baptism.

But the "one baptism" in 4:5 seems definitely to be a reference to physical (water) baptism because of its context in the rest of Paul's letter to the Ephesians.

-R

Robin #37542 Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:11 PM
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I spent 30 yrs. in the church of Christ trying to believe, among other things, that we are not saved until we are baptized in water. Could you please explain your concept of covenant & believers baptism? I have never herd of covenant baptism.

Jim_M #37543 Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:49 AM
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Also known as "infant baptism." Surely you have heard of it by that name.

The basis of it has been more than fully explored here in the past. A search of the Highway and the archives of this discussion board will uncover a wealth of information on both sides of the issue.


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