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lacknothing #37699 Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:36 AM
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lacknothing said:
So in actuality "the elect" are people who have "chosen" to repent and put their faith in Jesus. Your just saying that God chose you to be "elect" but it still had to take some effort on your part to become "elect".

And to rebutt the Roman Catholic Guy no I don't believe that the best time for a person to die is following his repentance because if one tuely repents and puts his faith in Jesus he can live another Thousand years and still be saved.

So basically to be an "elect" you have to practice repentance and faith so their are some "works" involved.


No, no, no. Our salvation comes 100% from God, it is Nothing we can do to earn it. The Elect will repent and display faith, and only the Elect. However, our faith comes from God not from within. IOW, Christian = the Elect.

I only commented because I thought you were misunderstanding Calvinists in saying that the Elect did not received God via repentence and faith. We are saying that it is only the Elect who will repent and have faith.


John Chaney

"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
CovenantInBlood #37700 Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:40 AM
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CovenantInBlood quoted the following texts:

"When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48). "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified" (Rom. 8:29-30). "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them" (Eph. 2:10). "For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus" (Phil. 1:6).

Those are excellent verses that attribute to God alone what He has predetermined to do. I also believe John 10 is helpful in this regard. This is that familiar passage about the Great Shepherd. In verses 22-30 we read that those who hear the voice of the Shepherd are His sheep. Conversely those who do not hear are not His sheep. It seems clear in this passage that the ability to hear is only given to those who the Father has given to Him.

The Shepherd Knows His Sheep

John 10: 22-30

22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.[27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

It is impossible to believe apart from God's electing grace.


Wes


When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
John_C #37701 Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:43 AM
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But YOU still have to REPENT to be an "elect".

lacknothing #37702 Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:48 AM
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huh?

lacknothing #37703 Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:49 AM
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So why was there a Great Commission? Why did Jesus instruct his Disciples to "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Mat 28:19"? Or did I take that of context to?

Why would Jesus tell his Disciples to go out to ALL nations if he was going to chose. Jesus didn't say Go ye therefore, and teach all nations that my father hath chosen, he said "Go ye therefore, and teach ALL nations."

Am I missing something here?

lacknothing #37704 Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:56 AM
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lack nothing: This quote says it all so well..:

Bishop William Beveridge: 'I cannot pray but I sin... My repentance needs to be repented of, and not only the worst of my sins but even the best of my duties, but even my most religious performances... I cannot hear or even preach a sermon but I sin. Nay, I cannot so much as confess my sins but my very confessions are still aggravations of them. My repentance needs to he repented of, my tears want washing, and the very washing of my tears needs still to be washed over again with the blood of my Redeemer. Thus not only the worst of my sins but even the best of my duties, speak me as a child of Adam.'


There never was a sinner half as big as Christ is as a Savior.
lacknothing #37705 Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:17 AM
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But YOU still have to REPENT to be an "elect"

This is not correct at all. One does not become elect by repenting. You either are or aren't elect before the foundation of the world...see Ephesians 1. There is no question that one has to have faith and repent. But Ephesians 2:8,9 inform us that even our faith is a gift from God. He doesn't coerce us into believing; He gives us a new heart (regeneration) so that we then can and actually do truly believe and repent. That person who truly comes faith and repents did so because that person already was elect before the foundation of the world according the good pleasure of His will.


Jimbo

Revelation 4:11
Jimbo #37706 Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:59 AM
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In Ephesians 1 I assume you are pretaining to this passage : According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph 1:4-5.

Let me give you a commentary from John Wesley on this : Eph 1:4 - As he hath chosen us - Both Jews and gentiles, whom he foreknew as believing in Christ, Eph 1:5 - Having predestinated us to the adoption of sons - Having foreordained that all who afterwards believed should enjoy the dignity of being sons of God, and joint - heirs with Christ. According to the good pleasure of his will - According to his free, fixed, unalterable purpose to confer this blessing on all those who should believe in Christ, and those only.

With this statement Paul is making I agree with Wesley in the fact that God has Predestines us to be his sons AFTER we have believed.

lacknothing #37707 Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:06 PM
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lacknothing said:
So why was there a Great Commission? Why did Jesus instruct his Disciples to "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Mat 28:19"? Or did I take that of context to?

Why would Jesus tell his Disciples to go out to ALL nations if he was going to chose. Jesus didn't say Go ye therefore, and teach all nations that my father hath chosen, he said "Go ye therefore, and teach ALL nations."

Am I missing something here?
<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/yep.gif" alt="" /> that you are, and not just someTHING but whole bunch of things. That's why in my first reply I tried to bring you back to "Square 1". When one, by the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration, comes to understand just how sinful they are and how helpless they are to do anything about it, they will be just like Martin Luther who is quoted as saying, "I'd believe in Unconditional Election even if it wasn't in the Bible". The truth is, because all are conceived in sin, are guilty before God inherently and are born spiritually dead, if it wasn't for Unconditional Election, no one could be saved.

Now.. as others have pointed out, one does not become elect. One is chosen by God (elected) from eternity. In God's perfect and appointed time the Holy Spirit comes and regenerates (new birth) the elect, creating spiritual life within them with a new disposition that is inclined toward God and all that is holy and good, draws them through conviction of sin and opening their eyes to the sufficiency of Christ's atoning work and His irresistible loveliness. Thus, they are infallibly saved by grace through faith in Christ.

So, this plan of God, from creation to the New Heaven and New Earth whereby He has chosen to save for Himself a remnant of Adam's fallen race to His own glory, is from eternity but executed in time. God not only decreed the end but the means to that end. Thus, it is the Holy Spirit working in and through the preaching of the Gospel that sinners are called to repentance and faith, which the Holy Spirit makes possible in regeneration. All is of God... all is of grace. You would do well to pick up this book, Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God, by J.I. Packer. And The Highway has quite a number of good articles and books you can freely access and read here: Evangelism

This might interest you: God's Indisputable Sovereignty.

And also as others have already mentioned, there is a nice selection of articles here: Articles on Predestination and Q&A items also.

In His grace,


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lacknothing #37708 Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:21 PM
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Let me give you a commentary from John Wesley on this : Eph 1:4 - As he hath chosen us - Both Jews and gentiles, whom he foreknew as believing in Christ, Eph 1:5 - Having predestinated us to the adoption of sons - Having foreordained that all who afterwards believed should enjoy the dignity of being sons of God, and joint - heirs with Christ. According to the good pleasure of his will - According to his free, fixed, unalterable purpose to confer this blessing on all those who should believe in Christ, and those only.

Wesley is wrong on foreknowledge. Can you show me any indication in the text itself (and you can use ALL of Ephesians 1 in this) where the word "foreknowledge" is used in any form or even hinted at?

However, even in what Wesley said, election came prior to the foundation of the world. He just got the basis of that election wronger than 2+2=5.


Jimbo

Revelation 4:11
lacknothing #37709 Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:50 PM
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I would like to recommend a DVD called 'Amazing Grace the History and Theology of Calvinism'. This DVD did something for a friend of mine that I was unable to do.
I had been trying to explain Calvinism to him for quite some time and it was clear that he just did not understand. I remembered the DVD that I had, so we sat down together and watched it. To make a long story short, the DVD did what I was unable to do and he now has embraced the truth of Calvinism.

Here is the link to the DVD.
http://www.amazinggracedvd.com/

Tom

Last edited by Tom; Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:51 PM.
Pilgrim #37710 Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:51 PM
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Why would Jesus instruct his disciples to Go ye therefore, and teach ALL nations if there is Predestiantion? What would be the point?

lacknothing #37711 Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:52 PM
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lacknothing said:
Let me give you a commentary from John Wesley on this : Eph 1:4 - As he hath chosen us - Both Jews and gentiles, whom he foreknew as believing in Christ, Eph 1:5 - Having predestinated us to the adoption of sons - Having foreordained that all who afterward believed should enjoy the dignity of being sons of God, and joint - heirs with Christ. According to the good pleasure of his will - According to his free, fixed, unalterable purpose to confer this blessing on all those who should believe in Christ, and those only.

With this statement Paul is making I agree with Wesley in the fact that God has Predestines us to be his sons AFTER we have believed.
lacknothing,

With all due respect Wesley, and you by being in agreement with him, have wrested the Scriptures to your own destruction. It is imperative that we do NOT add to nor take away from what God by His Holy Spirit has written by inspiration for us. What Bible are you using where the highlighted section appears? I've checked every English translation I own, of which there are many, as well as checking the Greek text, both TR and NA and this section is noticeably absent.

Let's also look at another passage with which some have also wrested in order to avoid the indisputable truth that God predestinates men to salvation based upon His own good pleasure and without any reference to man whatsoever.


Romans 8:29-30 (KJV) "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."


Wesley and all semi-Pelagians/Arminians want to define "foreknow" as "knowing beforehand on the basis of peering into the annals of history and perceiving what would occur". In this case, as in the passage in Eph. 1 which you believe one can justify adding to it "foreknowing who would believe in Christ". But let's see how that works out by inserting that definition in the passage so it would then read:

Quote
For whom he did foresee as having faith, he also did predestinate . . . and whom he did predestinate, them he also called (to have faith), and to those who (had faith), them he also justified . . ."
Do you see the problem here? How can it be that God in eternity foresaw those who already had faith and yet call them to have faith; believe? It simply doesn't make any sense. There is of course, a much more serious problem with this type of understanding. How can God who is Omniscient, He knows all things, be said to "look into the future" to see what will occur and on the basis of what He sees, determine what shall be? First of all, this means that there are things which exist which God did not create. For if He created them and determined all things as the Scripture undeniably says He did, then what could possibly exist that He was not aware of, He being the Creator of all things? Secondly, this view denies God is Omnipotent, i.e., He has all power and authority over all things. If it is true that God only determines what already exists, then He is simply conforming Himself to something outside and apart from Himself. In other words, what he allegedly "saw" determines what He agrees will be. And lastly, it also denies that God is Omnipresent. For how could there possibly be something that is unknown to God in a place called, "the future" where He is not present?

Again, in my first reply, I not only provided a link to an article by A.W. Pink on Foreknowledge, but I explained that in Scripture, where foreknowledge has reference to the elect, it always means, "fore-loved". And thus in this text it is justified in understanding it as saying, "For whom He fore-loved, them He predestinated . . .". And this is in perfect harmony with the actual text in Ephesians 1, "Ephesians 1:4 (KJV) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: . . ."

Lastly, IF what you are proposing is true, then the word "predestination" would be meaningless, since by the most basic definition it means to determine BEFOREHAND. In truth, what should be written according to your and Wesley's definition is "postdestination", to determine AFTERWARD, i.e., to determine what was discovered by perception after the fact. The Bible nowhere speaks of such a thing. It is something fabricated by the will of man in order to escape the incontrovertible truth that God is sovereign in all things including the salvation of sinners.


Isaiah 44:7 (ASV) "And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I established the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and that shall come to pass, let them declare."

Isaiah 46:9-10 (ASV) "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; [I am] God, and there is none like me; declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not [yet] done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure;"

Psalms 135:6 (ASV) "Whatsoever Jehovah pleased, that hath he done, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps;"

Daniel 4:35 (ASV) "And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"


In His grace,


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lacknothing #37712 Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:03 PM
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lacknothing said:
Why would Jesus instruct his disciples to Go ye therefore, and teach ALL nations if there is Predestiantion? What would be the point?
I would hope it would be obvious! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> It is through the means of preaching the Gospel that God calls His elect to faith, e.g.,

Quote
Acts 13:48 (KJV) "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: <span style="background-color:yellow">and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed</span>."

Romans 1:16 (ASV) "For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."

Romans 10:14-17 (ASV) "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? and how shall they preach, except they be sent? even as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that bring glad tidings of good things! But they did not all hearken to the glad tidings. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So belief [cometh] of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."
In His grace,


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Pilgrim #37713 Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:22 PM
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Why? If someone is "elect" why would they have to hear the preaching of the Gospel? Is that some kind of prerequisite?

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