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Pilgrim #37759 Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:42 PM
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When Jesus said "how often i would have gathered you under my wings as a hen does her chicks, but you would not" have anything to do with free will?

Jim_M #37760 Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:52 PM
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THE DOCTRINE OF ORIGINAL SIN by Jim Denison
Who has proven beyond a shadow of doubt that babies are born totaly depraved???
Ps 51:5 David says “ Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. This verse seems to be the main verse that the generally accepted doctrine of original sin comes from. It is not absolutely clear what David is trying to communicate here.
One of the basic principles of interpreting scripture is that the unclear passages should be interpreted by the more clear passages. The following are scriptures that are much easier to understand concerning this subject, In other words let scripture interpret scripture.
God commanded us to marry, conceive and give birth., Genesis 1:27-28 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number”.

Why then would David say marriage and child bearing is sinful, and that we are born sinful when the whole process is clearly blessed by the Lord?

If children are sinners, why did Jesus say we must become like them to enter into the kingdom of God? Matthew 18:1-3 “unless you become as a little child you cannot enter
The kingdom of God. If children are totally depraved as some say, then Jesus gave a very poor example of how adults must become to enter the kingdom.

Because of the clear meaning of these scriptures could it be that David was simply saying that he was conceived and born into a sinful world? Or was this simply a hyperbolic statement?
This world is made sinful by adults, not babies or God.

Adam and Eve were created with the God given freedom to choose to sin or to choose to trust and obey Him. God knew they would choose to sin but without this freedom love would have been meaningless. Obviously this does not make God the author of sin.

In the same way every child is born with the freedom to choose to sin or to choose not to, and is sure to choose to sin if they live long enough.

This does not mean they are born sinners, any more than Adam and Eve were created sinners.

Original sin simply means that as human beings we are sure to fall into sin if we live long enough just as Adam and Eve did.

Therefore we can see that blaming Adam and Eve for sin and saying we are born sinful is to completely miss the fact that we all become guilty for our own sin the exact same way they did (by disobeying God). This sin is credited to Adam simply because he was first and it is common to all humanity except one, Jesus! Thank God that through Him we have the solution to this problem!
Isaiah 7:16
For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken.
(NAS95)

The bible teaches that the children are punished for the sins of their fathers, to the third & fourth generation, if they are guilty of the same sins, Exodus 20:5 (of those who hate me) and if they do not repent, Numbers 14:18 (forgiving sin and rebellion).This is made very clear in Ezekiel 18, when the Jews accuse God of “sour grapes”. Consequently no one is a sinner just because Adam was a sinner, we all become sinners the same way Adam became a sinner, by sinning and not repenting.

Jim_M #37761 Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:33 AM
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If children are sinners, why did Jesus say we must become like them to enter into the kingdom of God?

It isn't because of any supposed "innocence" on the part of the children! It is because children are dependent and humble, willing to accept from another what they cannot provide for themselves. And what is it that we sinners cannot provide for ourselves? Forgiveness, deliverance from the power of sin over us, from the world, the flesh, and the devil.

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Adam and Eve were created with the God given freedom to choose to sin or to choose to trust and obey Him. ... In the same way every child is born with the freedom to choose to sin or to choose not to, and is sure to choose to sin if they live long enough.

Adam and Eve, before the Fall, were clearly capable of living out either choice - either innocence or evil. Once they yielded to sin, however, they and all their descendants became enslaved to sin (Romans 7:14-8:2). Free will is not possible for slaves. No matter what they wish, they are not able to live out their own will as long as they are prevented from doing so by their chains. They must first be freed! That is the sense of the doctrine of Total Depravity that we chafe against.

Robin #37762 Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:55 AM
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What makes it clear that Adam & Eve could have chosen to never sin and been successful at it? In my opinion once God created them with the freedom to choose (which they obviously had)and also created them human, they were sure to sin, just like we do when we grow from children into adults, i think this is why God provided the tree of life (Jesus) right from the start, in the midst of the garden. I think they did eventually learn to eat (trust) in this tree and not to trust (eat) from the tree of knowledge (themselves, the law, thou shall not). The complete and perfect story is right here in the beginning if we just bother to dig it out through prayer, study and living. I think the doctrines of men, although well intentioned and having some good points, tend to lock us into themselves as we grow in our spiritual walk, if we allow them to. We should never allow what other people think be the final authority for what we think.

Jim_M #37763 Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:08 PM
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Jim_M said:
What makes it clear that Adam & Eve could have chosen to never sin and been successful at it?

They were created in the image of God.

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I think the doctrines of men, although well intentioned and having some good points, tend to lock us into themselves as we grow in our spiritual walk, if we allow them to. We should never allow what other people think be the final authority for what we think.

Indeed, Scripture should be the final authority.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
CovenantInBlood #37764 Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:56 PM
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I thought we were created in the image of God also?

Jim_M #37765 Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:41 AM
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Jim_M said:
I thought we were created in the image of God also?

We are, but we enter the world after the Fall, and so the image of God in us is totally distorted. That is why the we need to be conformed to the image of Christ.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
CovenantInBlood #37766 Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:47 AM
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If Adam had not sinned, but only his children did, then i could believe he was different than me. We all fall the exact same way he did, by choosing to sin, this is when we become distorted and not before.

Jim_M #37767 Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:04 AM
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Jim said:
If Adam had not sinned, but only his children did, then i could believe he was different than me. We all fall the exact same way he did, by choosing to sin, this is when we become distorted and not before.

You are missing the point that is absolutely essential in the understanding of our salvation.

When Adam sinned a corrupted nature was imputed to him for his disobedience and this corrupted nature was infused into his being and and as federal head of the human race, into his seed. This is why the Scripture tells us that we, and our children are born into this world already condemned and dead in trespasses and sin.

In Christ, our righteousness is only imputed (credited and promised) to us by grace Alone, faith Alone and by the work of Christ Alone. This is why the words of God command us to repent and do battle against our own sinful flesh. To believe that, at present, righteousness is infused by baptism, or any other means, into our nature or even into the nature of our children is Roman Catholic and/or Arminian heresy and very dangerous "works" religion.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24


Denny

Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
Jim_M #37768 Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:40 AM
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Romans 5:12: "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." Verse 15: "For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one Man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many." Verse 16: "And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgement was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses unto justification." Verse 17: "For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ." See also verses 18-19 and 1st Corinthians 15:21.

The mere fact that all humans are mortal is proof that the Fall has effected all mankind. Even babies die. They are mortal, though they never sinned in your view. We are all born in Adam's likeness, after his image (as with all living things), inheriting his nature - which was corrupted by his sin.

That human depravity is the center of this debate! See Romans 5:6, 7:18, 8:7Genesis 6:5 and 8:21, and Romans 3:10-12, 7:14-23.

Scripture speaks of three imputations:

Adam's sin and guilt and corruption and death [1]imputed to us.[/i]

Our sin and guilt and corruption imputed to Christ,

Jesus' righteousness and purity imputed to believers.

-Robin

Jim_M #37769 Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:10 PM
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Jim_M said:
If Adam had not sinned, but only his children did, then i could believe he was different than me. We all fall the exact same way he did, by choosing to sin, this is when we become distorted and not before.

Two questions for you:
1) What does circumcision represent?
2) Why were infant descendants of Abraham circumcised?


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
CovenantInBlood #37770 Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:20 PM
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#1 Ge 17:11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you.
#2 Certainly not for the forgiveness of sin, any more than baptism has the power to remove sin, they are both a sign that sin will be forgiven if the heart is also right with God. You have assigned yourself the impossible task of proving that babies are guilty of sin. Why?

Jim_M #37771 Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:37 PM
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Jim_M said:
#1 Ge 17:11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you.

Good. But there is more:

"So circumcise your heart, and stiffen your neck no longer" (Deut. 10:16). "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live" (Deut. 30:6). "Circumcise yourselves to the LORD and remove the foreskins of your heart, men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, or else My wrath will go forth like fire and burn with none to quench it, because of the evil of your deeds" (Jer. 4:4). "But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God" (Rom. 2:29). "He received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised" (Rom. 4:11). "In Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross" (Col. 2:11-14).

Circumcision was fundamentally about a heart dead in sins that was renewed by God, having the sin cut off, and turned in faith to Him. Why would God have infant boys circumcised on the eighth day if they were sinless?

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#2 Certainly not for the forgiveness of sin, any more than baptism has the power to remove sin, they are both a sign that sin will be forgiven if the heart is also right with God.

Neither circumcision nor baptism has the capacity to take away sin, but you are right that both signify that sin is forgiven when the heart is made right with God. With such a meaning, why would circumcision be applied to 8-day-old infants who have never sinned and are in no need of having any sin forgiven?

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You have assigned yourself the impossible task of proving that babies are guilty of sin. Why?

Because it's biblical truth. Newborn babies are innocent with referrence to other men, but they are not innocent with referrence to God. They are sinners like all of us, in need of having their sin washed away. Why do you find it impossible to believe? David did not, he found himself a sinner from the moment of his conception. David, the man after God's own heart!

And besides all this, even the cutest and sweetest of babies are wracked with infantile anger when they do not have what they demand. Because God is kind, our reaction is one of gentle tolerance toward these "innocent" outbursts. But they are indicative of the sinful nature which the child has inherited from Adam.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
CovenantInBlood #37772 Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:13 AM
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Even an uncircumsized baby was "cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant," according to Genesis 17:12-14. An eight-day-old covenant breaker.

Moses was nearly put to death because he had neglected to circumcise his own son (Exodus 4:24-26). Not that circumcision saved Moses' son's soul, but it certainly saved his son's physical life (not to mention Moses' own life) because he would have been "cut off from his people" as a covenant breaker - child or not.

As I said in a previous post here, the mere fact that babies are mortal is proof that they are inherently guilty, since death is part of the curse upon Adam.

Why is this important? Because as others have said, the depravity of humankind is at the center of the debate about predestination.

Why, if mankind's nature has not been inherently corrupted, must God predestinate some to be conformed to the image of His Son (Romans 5:30) when all are made in God's image already? What happened to the image of God in men that it needs to be "conformed" to anything else?

The depravity of humankind is central to this larger question of predestination (we are still talking about predestination, right? Because there are multiple threads on this other topic).

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Robin said:...the depravity of humankind is at the center of the debate about predestination...The depravity of humankind is central to this larger question of predestination...
I would tend to disagree based on the concept of "unconditional election" wherein (if I correctly understand it) the divine choice excludes any consideration of the person's state whatsoever, whether they are "totally depraved" or not.

The issue regarding predestination is "Unconditional Election", which is (it seems) the heart and soul of Calvinism.

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