The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Help me understand particular atonement, please.

There is not space to chronicle my personal jouney of faith. In short after 'following' the teaching of a rather unground individaul for about a year I began to realize that faith was about more than what I experience. As a response to this period in my Christian walk I began to seek out more theologically minded authors. I read Piper's book "Desiring God" and through this became intrested in puritian and reform thought. Around the same time the chuch I am a memeber of called a new pastor who has rather clear reform leanings. He is the one who pointed me to this web site. That being said I am trying to understand some thng. So any assistance would be apprecuated. Here is my question: How can it be siad that Christ only died for the elcted? I use to think this was one of the weaker points of the imfamous TULIP but I am now begining to wonder. Can you help me understand Limited or particular atonement? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/spin.gif" alt="" />

Hi

Welcome to the Highway, May you find it a place to learn more about our Lord and His precious Word.
At the moment, I am a little tired (11:28 PM), so rather than try to answer your questions; I thought I would direct you to a few of the many great articles that can be found on the Highway.

http://www.the-highway.com/arminianism.html

http://www.the-highway.com/bronson__chapt1.html

I am sure others will join this discussion and give their 2 cents.

Tom

Hi there Welcome to the Discussion Board.

Helping you to understand "Limited or Definite Atonement" would be much easier if you could perhaps share what questions and/or problems that you have with the doctrine. And even better, if you could share what YOUR understanding is of the doctrine. Many people have a wrong conception of Calvinism in general which has come from others who are misguided, wrongly taught or who deliberately distort the teachings of the doctrines of grace. So, we could start there.

In a nutshell, "Definite Atonement" or "Particular Redemption" simply teaches that what the Father foreordained the Son and Spirit are in complete agreement and work in harmony with the Father to bring all things to their appointed end. Thus, the Son took on human flesh, was crucified for the punishment of sins of those whom the Father predestinated and was resurrected to life for their redemption. Looking at this from another perspective, the Lord Jesus Christ came to save a particular people, the elect, whom the Father from all eternity determined to save out of Adam's fallen race. To accomplish this, the death of the Son was vicarious and substitutionary, i.e., Christ's death ACTUALLY accomplished that which it was designed to do: Save.

Contrary to this biblical truth are those who would teach that Christ's death didn't actually accomplish anything other than to open the door; to make salvation POSSIBLE.... on the condition and only on the condition that a person accept that death as being true, or as their own, or... numerous other conditions. So, in the end, Christ suffered the penalty for everyone but in vain since not everyone is saved. Even more bizarre is that Christ's sacrifice which was fully accepted by the Father as sufficient to reconcile, to propitiate, to ransom sinners is ineffective to save and it makes God guilty of injustice for He will punish those whom Christ allegedly already atoned for having suffered the punishment due them on the cross.

Okay...... so here are some resources for you to peruse:

- Main Page for The Atonement

- The Old Gospel and the New, by J.I. Packer

In His grace,

If I understand the thinking goes something like this... Because He unconditionallly elcted those whom He would save the work of Christ on the Cross is only effectually for those who he chose. (I am not disagreeing with this per say.) I just can not seem to align this with all the Whosoevers and alls. It seems locgical and right that Christ's work would have particualr purpose. As I am considering this doctrine I am coming to realize that while I thought it would make the death of Christ less personal to me it has done the opposite. I have always had trouble with the thought that Christ died for my sins particularly. Having grown up in a Sourthern Baptist Church the odd mixing of reform and non reform theology in this area has made secruity more about how I feel about what Christ did for ALL people. I am not sure there is time to discuss the "Christ would have died if you were the only one" sermoms. These seem to be more about invoking guilt or hypergratitude than giving real assurance. I hope this a least begins to answer the question asked of me.

I can understand the problem you are having here, but I can confidently say that it is generally easily resolved. The problem is a hermeneutical one... i.e. a matter of interpretation. I'll let the following quotes serve for my explanation (saves me from typing, <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" />)

And,

In His grace,

Hello.

I believe one should not say, "I do not know if Jesus died for me or not." You cannot know the answer to that in the abstract.

The only way you will ever know is if you actually do come to Jesus. And if you do come, then you know that you are one for whom he died. (particular redemption ie. limited atonement)

Therefore, come to Jesus! And if you have not done so before, come now!

First, we are to offer salvation to everyone because we are told to do it and because there are a multitude of Scriptures to that effect.

If God tells us to proclaim the gospel to everyone, we can be sure that this makes sense. We must remember Ezekiel 33:11, or Isaiah 55:1, or Matthew 11:28.

But second, and speaking strictly, the gospel is not so much an offer, that people may politely accept or refuse, according to their own pleasure, as it is a command to turn away from sin and come to Jesus.

People have gotten into the habit of treating the gospel as an offer, which in one sense it is. But, we have forgotten that, even more than an offer, it is a command to sinners to repent and believe.

It is only after people have done this and have turned to Jesus that they can know that they are among those for whom Christ died.

Does this weaken the gospel message? Far from weakening the message, the doctrine of definite atonement strengthens it and alone makes it a genuine gospel. A gospel that truly humbles.

I am coming to understand this more everyday. When I see the depth of my sin I can not fully comprehend the depth of His grace. To believe that there is any thing in me, even my chosing Him, that would move Him seems like insanity. Honestly, I am finding more peace with the realization that all of salvation is His doing and that He is the one who is glorified by choosing to save the elect... of which I am humbled to be a part. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bow.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bow.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bow.gif" alt="" />

To be sure, for us to choose Christ, God must change our heart. That is precisely what He does. He changes our heart for us. He gives us a desire for Himself that we otherwise would not have. Then we choose Him out of the deisre that is within us. We freely choose Him because we want to choose Him. That is the wonder of His grace.

I read this conclusion in a book concerning the doctrines of grace, and I definitely shared the joy of this doctrine with him...

Let me close this book by mentioning that soon after I awoke to the truth of predestination I began to see the beauty of it and taste its sweetness. I have grown to love this doctrine. It is most comforting.

It underlines the extent to which God has gone in our behalf. It is a theology that begins and ends with grace. It begins and ends with doxology. We praise a God who lifted us from spiritual deadness and makes us walk in high places. We find a God who is “for us,” giving us the courage to withstand those who may be against us. It makes our souls rejoice to know that all things are working together for our good.

We delight in our Savior who truly saves us and preserves us and intercedes for us. We marvel at his craftsmanship and in what he has wrought. We skip and kick our heels when we discover his promise to finish in us what he has started in us. We ponder mysteries and bow before them, but not without doxology for the riches of grace he has revealed.