The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum "Love your enemies" and "Does God love all"

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus teaches that we should love our enemies. At the same time, all those who are not resting in Christ are at emnity with God and under God's wrath. So we do not say that God loves all. Since Jesus was fully God and fully man, how can we reconcile those two teachings. Since Jesus taught that we should love our enemies, did he, as a man, love his enemies, even those who are non-elect and will always be under God's wrath. At the same time, as God he did not love them because they are justly deserving his wrath? How do we reconcile this teaching in Jesus?

Thanks,
John

You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? "If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

John,

First of all, the popular teaching that God loves everybody equally has no biblical basis whatsoever. God has a "special" (electing) love for those whom He has predestinated to be saved in Christ. (cf. Jh 13:1; 17:24-26; Rom 8:29, 30; Eph 1:4,5; et al) This love is salvific, based upon God's incomprehensible grace. And there is a general "love", i.e., benevolence which God shows to all. (cf. Matt 5:45; Titus 3:4) There are myriad things which God bestows upon the reprobate (non-elect) because God is merciful to all men, e.g., life itself, intelligence, artistic abilities, etc. See also: Does God Love the Sinner and Hate Only His Sin?", by John H. Gerstner.

Secondly, thus we are to show benevolence to all men as best as we are able. We are to be kind, respectful, helpful, etc. This is what Jesus was referring to when He said to "love your enemies". We are to also "love the brethren". (1Jh 3:14f) But this love transcends that we are to show to all men in general, since we are related by blood; Christ's blood which He shed for them.

Does this help?

Yes, Jesus teaches us on the "sermon on the mount" that we should love our enemies but he is not teaching that we must be friends with them and have fellowship with them, Jesus is speaking of seeking their good. The Lord says "pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;". What are we to pray for? What is the most important thing that we should pray for for those who do evil unto us? I believe it is to pray for their salvation as we do not know who are God's elect. The Sun and Rain on the non elect are not blessings for they glorify him not as God, neither are they thankful and because of their hard and "impenitent heart" they treasure up "wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;".


Williams <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/my2cents.gif" alt="" />

Well, I replied to this earlier, and I just noticed my reply is not here. I guess I closed the window before the submission was finished.


I just want to clarify that I did not intend to claim that "God love all". In my question, I said that "At the same time, all those who are not resting in Christ are at emnity with God and under God's wrath. So we do not say that God loves all." I think I could have chosen a better title for the post than the one I did. I wrote "Does God love all" in the title because I was trying to reconcile the command that we should love our enemies with the idea that God does not love all, even if superficially the idea that we should love our enemies might imply that God does love all.

Your post was very helpful though in clarifying the issue. Just to make sure I am understanding what you said though, I will restate it. The basic point is that God loves all in the sense of a general, benevolent love which is commonly bestowed on all mankind due to God's mercy. This general, benevolent love is what we are commanded to show our enemies. However, a specific, salvific love is shown only to the elect. Is this basically the right idea?

Thanks,
John

That's a good summary, at least I'm satisfied with it. However, I do want to add that I refrain from referring to God's beneficent mercy (aka: benevolence) as "love" as it is less than helpful, especially when speaking to an unbeliever. My introductory remarks were not in reference to what I might have thought you believed personally, but rather to simply state what the current belief is re: God's love for all mankind. So I reserve the word "love" when speaking of God's love for that which pertains to the elect and/or believers since it is salvific. And I use such terms as goodness, mercy, benevolence, kindness, patience, etc., when referring to God's dealings with unbelievers.

One of the most used misused texts in the Bible to support a universal love of God for all mankind aside from THE most misused (John 3:16) is here:

Titus 3:4 (ASV) "But when the kindness of God our Saviour, and his love toward man, appeared,"

The two highlighted words, although translated differently in many versions, are actually the same word in the Greek philanthropia, from which we get our English word "Philanthropy". It is to do good to others less fortunate; to be generous toward others, etc. And in a very general sense, it can be referred to as loving others. But in the Bible, it is to be seen in contrast to the salvific agape love that God has for His own. This is not to say that the word "agape" isn't used in a more general sense in the Bible too; it is. But as always, the CONTEXT will determine the real meaning of a word.

One last note in regard to William's remark concerning God's beneficence:

The Sun and Rain on the non elect are not blessings for they glorify him not as God, neither are they thankful and because of their hard and "impenitent heart" they treasure up "wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God. . ."

I can't be sure where this came from but I highly suspect it is from someone in the Protestant Reformed Church. But, wherever it's source, it is typical of hyper-Calvinism where any idea whatsoever of Common Grace is rejected. In my estimation and that of the vast majority of Calvinists, God's bestowal of goodness upon all men indiscriminately, e.g., rain, sunshine, talents, etc., is not done with the specific intent of damning them further, although such blessings rejected surely will be used against them at the Judgment. These things are sincere and are an indication of God's mercy upon ALL.

In His grace,

The "remark" is Williams plus Romans chapter 1. The quotation marks are where the scripture is used word for word. God's grace is not in things. Psalm 73 <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/igiveup.gif" alt="" />


.

My two pennies:

Malachi 1:2
"I have loved you," says the LORD. But you say, "How have you loved us?" "Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?" declares the LORD. "Yet I have loved Jacob"

and later

Romans 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."


Johan

God has shown His love for all by sending His Son. What greater example of love needs to be shown? Because people reject it, does not negate His objective love which is shown through His Son. His subjective love, however, is another thing altogether, that which only the elect experience. So, God does love all, although all do not experience the love subjectively.

Hisalone,


I would appreciate your elaborating a bit more on the specific way in which God's foreordination and approval of the death of a perfectly innocent man shows and is an example of His love, especially in the light of His command:

"Do not kill the innocent and righteous, for I will not acquit the wicked." (Exodus 23:7, ESV)

Put another way, how would you answer someone who claims that God's bruising of His Son looks like anything but love?

Jn. 15:13 Greater love has no man than he lay down his life for his friends.

Gal. 2:20b who loved me and gave himself for me.

Rom. 5:8 God demonstrates His love to us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Christ who is God, willingly bore the punishment due us in order that we might be saved from our sins. Many refuse this free offer and will be required to pay the penalty themselves. Have you ever had your love and favor rejected in this life? That pales in comparison to the love God shows us thru His Son. Look what the world is rejecting when they refuse to trust in Christ.

Christ gave up much more than just the suffering He experienced in this world in order to justify us, He is forever bound to a body, albeit a glorified body, but a body none the less. What is even more amazing, in the glorified state, all who have trusted in Him will have a body such as His, what great love this is, love so amazing!! If the lost refuse this, it is of their own choosing, God has offered His love to all, and all are welcome to come.

Hisalone,

I'm not sure that you are grasping the heart of my question. You strongly implied that God's putting Christ to death showed or was an example of His love for every person to ever exist, ie "all". The verses you supplied refer to the objects of God's love successively as "his friends", "me", "us", "we". Are you saying that those terms are equivalent with "every person to ever exist"? And if so, how does God's putting Christ to death demonstrate God's love to the non-elect among them?

This inquiring mind really wants to know.

God's love appeared as was pointed out earlier, Titus 3:4. We try to explain it away as benevolence or some other way, but God is incomprehensible. I have no problem seeing the universal love for mankind shown through His sending His Son. Why is that hard to grasp? Our being chosen is not a greater love than what the non-elect received.

Why were we created? Wasn't it to express the glory of God?

Romans 9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use?

Our being saved is an expression of God's love, but also an expression of His sovereignty. Our being saved is no less love than He showed to the unsaved, it is just that we were made able to respond to it. He didn't love us more, just that His love flowed through us. It is Christ in us.

Because God is unchanging, His love also is unchanging. The difference is the application, or quite simply, our election.

hisalone,

I believe that "I" was the one who brought to the fore Titus 3:4 and thought I clearly explained that the word "love" which appears in several translations is misleading, I believe due to the universalism which currently exists among Evangelicals and others. The word in the Greek is philanthropia, which is where our word philanthropy originates. The Bible uses two other specific words for "love" however; phileo and agape, the latter having different meanings determined by its immediate context. That is why in Titus 3:4 the word should be correctly translated as "benevolence" rather than "love".

Oh contrare!! Electing love is far different than any general benevolence shown by God to all mankind for it accomplishes that which was purposed; the salvation of those whom were chosen in Christ.

Ephesians 1:3-11 (ASV) "Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ: even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved: in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, [I say,] in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;"

Hardly can it be said that this eternal, sovereign bestowal of love, i.e., saving grace, is universal in scope. Objectively speaking, if it were, then de facto, all men would be saved. For a little more on this subject, see my article here: Do You REALLY Believe that Salvation is by Grace Alone?.

I don't see where this serves your proposition that God loves all indiscriminately, but rather it goes to show clearly that God does, in fact, discriminate among the fallen race of Adam. In fact, there are salient passages in Scripture to show that God does not love all men, e.g.:

Psalms 5:5-6 (ASV) "The arrogant shall not stand in thy sight: Thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou wilt destroy them that speak lies: Jehovah abhorreth the blood-thirsty and deceitful man."

Psalms 11:5-7 (ASV) "Jehovah trieth the righteous; But the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Upon the wicked he will rain snares; Fire and brimstone and burning wind shall be the portion of their cup. For Jehovah is righteous; he loveth righteousness: The upright shall behold his face."

Proverbs 6:16-19 (ASV) "There are six things which Jehovah hateth; Yea, seven which are an abomination unto him: Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood; A heart that deviseth wicked purposes, Feet that are swift in running to mischief, A false witness that uttereth lies, And he that soweth discord among brethren."

Romans 9:6-13 (ASV) "But [it is] not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel: neither, because they are Abraham's seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. For this is a word of promise, According to this season will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. And not only so; but Rebecca also having conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac-- for [the children] being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Ephesians 2:1-9 (ASV) "And you [did he make alive,] when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:-- but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly [places], in Christ Jesus: that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory."

Should you or anyone else desire to offer John 3:16 as proof that God loves all men without exception and in an identical way, I would recommend you read the following articles:

- THE 'WORLD' OF JOHN 3:16 DOES NOT MEAN 'All Men Without Exception', by Rev. David Engelsma
- An Exposition of John 3:16, by John Owen
- God's Election in John 3:16, by L.R. Shelton, Sr.
- For God So Love the World, by Homer C. Hoeksema

In His grace,

I too once held that position, but it is not who God is. His hatred revealed against man in the verses you posted, is hatred because of their actions (I will do a little more contemplation though). I must close down for today, but will continue the discussion later if you like.

hisalone,

I would have to disagree with your rebuttal response: "is hatred because of their actions". ALL men are by nature under the wrath of God (Eph 2:3) because of who they ARE. What I am referring to, of course, is the biblical doctrine of Original Sin. All men at conception have imputed to them the guilt of Adam's sin, having sinned with and in him AND they inherit a corruption of nature which is totally opposed to God and all righteousness. (Rom 5:12, 17; 1Cor 15:21, 22; cf. Gen 6:5; 8:21; Ps 51:5; Jer 17:7; Matt 7:17-19; Jh 3:18, 19; Eph 4:17-19; et al) Thus, men are under God's wrath for who they are and then more so for the things they think, say and do; the fruits of their depraved nature.

Further, Rom 9:10-13 dispels the notion that men are hated because of what they do for it says:

Romans 9:10-13 (ASV) "And not only so; but Rebecca also having conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac-- for [the children] being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

Jacob and Esau were twins; identical twins, i.e., of the same embryo. God's love was upon Jacob before he was born as was God's hatred of Esau before he was born . . . not having done anything good or bad. In this text it is indisputable that the love of God is inextricably tied to His eternal election. Thus it can truly be said that God's hatred is the opposite, i.e., His eternal decree of reprobation; His determination to not save. It is nowhere said that God loved Esau, especially in the same manner as Jacob.

In His grace,