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xyz #39610 Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:02 AM
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xyz said:
And Jesus' sacrifice made sure that no-one can claim to have offended God and got away with it, otherwise God would not be sovereign. That is why Jesus' sacrifice is effective. God is satisfied, and what people do about it is their own business in that respect.
But you don't seem to believe and/or understand that truth. Let's look this from a human example:

You owe 5 Trillion dollars to a debtor.
You are incapable of work, you have no means whatsoever, and you are sitting in debtor's prison.
Someone comes along, takes pity on you and pays off your debt in full.
This person further agrees to pay for any and all debts you might incur in the future.
The Debtor is fully satisfied and thus you are no longer liable for the original debt nor any future debt.

It doesn't make any difference whatsoever whether you accept the other person's act of incredible generosity or not. The debt is PAID.... the debtor has been satisfied and thus no longer holds you accountable. If you want to go on thinking you still owe the money, that's fine, albeit stupid. But the LEGAL aspects of the matter have been closed. Flatly denying that the debt has been paid does not and cannot change the fact that it was paid. The issue was resolved by a transaction that occurred between another individual and the debtor. This is something you have no authority nor power to change. The prison cell door is wide open and you are free to walk out. Whether you choose to remain in that cell or walk out is up to you, but nevertheless, the DEBT IS PAID IN FULL.

Granted, the illustration is not a perfect one and there are some aspects of it which do not accord with the atonement of Christ, i.e., the fact that the ones for whom He died are given the desire and ability to recognize Christ for who He is and their personal need of His grace of salvation. They ALL are made willing in God's perfect time.

In His grace,


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xyz #39611 Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:10 AM
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xyz said:
"If Christ's atonement is not accepted."

That is not a sin per se. It is ok provided that one has some other means of justification. It is disastrous because there is no other means than Christ's atonement.
More nonsensical double-talk eh? [Linked Image]

Your accepting or rejecting what Christ ACTUALLY ACCOMPLISHED does not annul it or make it effective. And again, ALL for whom Christ died will infallibly come to Him in repentance and faith since they too are gifts of grace which He merited for them in His substitutionary death.

1. The Father predestinates and elects some to salvation in Christ . . .
2. The Son atones for those whom the Father has chosen . . .
3. The Holy Spirit applies the benefits of the atonement upon those who are elected to salvation.
4. DONE DEAL.

In His grace,


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Pilgrim #39612 Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:13 AM
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Pilgrim said:
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xyz said:
And Jesus' sacrifice made sure that no-one can claim to have offended God and got away with it, otherwise God would not be sovereign. That is why Jesus' sacrifice is effective. God is satisfied, and what people do about it is their own business in that respect.
But you don't seem to believe and/or understand that truth. Let's look this from a human example:

You owe 5 Trillion dollars to a debtor.
You are incapable of work, you have no means whatsoever, and you are sitting in debtor's prison.
Someone comes along, takes pity on you and pays off your debt in full.
This person further agrees to pay for any and all debts you might incur in the future.
The Debtor is fully satisfied and thus you are no longer liable for the original debt nor any future debt.

It doesn't make any difference whatsoever whether you accept the other person's act of incredible generosity or not. The debt is PAID.... the debtor has been satisfied and thus no longer holds you accountable. If you want to go on thinking you still owe the money, that's fine, albeit stupid.
That's not what people who have heard the gospel do, though. They know that their debt has been paid, but they refuse to admit that they owed it. But they cannot live with that, because it is a lie, and that is why they are eternally condemned by their own consciences.

xyz #39613 Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:47 PM
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xyz said:
That's not what people who have heard the gospel do, though. They know that their debt has been paid, but they refuse to admit that they owed it. But they cannot live with that, because it is a lie, and that is why they are eternally condemned by their own consciences.
Methinks that there is yet another error concerning a fundamental issue; the Gospel. There is nothing in the Gospel which indiscriminately declares that any particular individual's debt has been paid. What the biblical Gospel declares is that Christ has died for sinners and all who come to Him in repentance and faith will have their sins remitted. Again, Christ did NOT die for all men without exception else all men would be infallibly saved.

If a person refuses to admit that they stand guilty before God because they are worthless sinners, that they are at enmity with God and He with them, that God's wrath is upon them and unless they are justified in Christ they are worthy of condemnation, etc., then they obviously are not regenerate and at least at that moment have no interest in that redemption that Christ accomplished on the cross.

Being eternally condemned by their own consciences is a far cry from the condemnation the Scriptures teach. Those outside of Christ are liable to everlasting torment and will spend eternity in hell. The Positive and Explicit Nature of Christ’s Teaching Concerning Eternal Punishment

In His grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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xyz #39614 Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:03 PM
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Was it Christ's intention to die on behalf of the unrepentant, yes or no? If yes: Did Christ fail in His mission since His propitiation is not effective for the unrepentant, yes or no?

Who decides what is effective? Christ died for all sins, past, present, future, so that no-one can claim impunity against God.

To propiate is to appease an offended party
And Jesus' sacrifice made sure that no-one can claim to have offended God and got away with it, otherwise God would not be sovereign. That is why Jesus' sacrifice is effective. God is satisfied, and what people do about it is their own business in that respect.

If someone pays my debt, the debt is cancelled, and regardless of whether I think I actually owed the debt, the one to whom I was indebted is not going to pursue me to collect the debt that someone else has paid on my behalf. If Christ turned away the wrath of God toward all persons, then no matter what they do, they will not go to hell where God's wrath is poured out, because God's wrath has been turned away from them. Or else, Christ only turned away God's wrath toward sinners in part or temporarily, because the unrepentant do go to hell.


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CovenantInBlood said:
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xyz said:
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CovenantInBlood said:
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[quote]Was it Christ's intention to die on behalf of the unrepentant, yes or no? If yes: Did Christ fail in His mission since His propitiation is not effective for the unrepentant, yes or no?

Who decides what is effective? Christ died for all sins, past, present, future, so that no-one can claim impunity against God.

To propiate is to appease an offended party
And Jesus' sacrifice made sure that no-one can claim to have offended God and got away with it, otherwise God would not be sovereign. That is why Jesus' sacrifice is effective. God is satisfied, and what people do about it is their own business in that respect.

If someone pays my debt, the debt is cancelled, and regardless of whether I think I actually owed the debt, the one to whom I was indebted is not going to pursue me to collect the debt that someone else has paid on my behalf.[/quote]
But you can pursue yourself, and will do so. You will know the terrible truth, even if no-one else does- though they will.

xyz #39616 Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:56 PM
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xyz said:
But you can pursue yourself, and will do so. You will know the terrible truth, even if no-one else does- though they will.
What, pray tell, does that mean? And further, what does that have to do with the OBJECTIVE and FULL satisfaction made by Christ? This really isn't that difficult to grasp. rolleyes2

In His grace,


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Pilgrim #39617 Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:10 PM
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Pilgrim said:
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xyz said:
But you can pursue yourself, and will do so. You will know the terrible truth, even if no-one else does- though they will.
What, pray tell, does that mean?
That a bad conscience condemns.

Quote
And further, what does that have to do with the OBJECTIVE and FULL satisfaction made by Christ?
God is satisfied; he has the necessary 'payment'. What others do is their affair, on this count.

xyz #39618 Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:00 PM
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xyz said:

But you can pursue yourself, and will do so. You will know the terrible truth, even if no-one else does- though they will.

You are truly a conundrum wrapped in an enigmna.

All hail the master of the non sequitur!


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Pilgrim #39619 Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:24 PM
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Pilgrim said:
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xyz said:
That's not what people who have heard the gospel do, though. They know that their debt has been paid, but they refuse to admit that they owed it. But they cannot live with that, because it is a lie, and that is why they are eternally condemned by their own consciences.
Methinks that there is yet another error concerning a fundamental issue; the Gospel. There is nothing in the Gospel which indiscriminately declares that any particular individual's debt has been paid. What the biblical Gospel declares is that Christ has died for sinners and all who come to Him in repentance and faith will have their sins remitted.
Quote, please?

xyz #39620 Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:34 PM
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xyz said:
But you can pursue yourself, and will do so. You will know the terrible truth, even if no-one else does- though they will.
Quote
Pilgrim replied:
What, pray tell, does that mean?
Quote
xyz then responded with:
That a bad conscience condemns.
But a condemning conscience has no bearing whatsoever on the salvation wrought by Christ for His sheep.

Quote
Pilgrim also asked:
And further, what does that have to do with the OBJECTIVE and FULL satisfaction made by Christ?
Quote
And xyz replied with:
God is satisfied; he has the necessary 'payment'. What others do is their affair, on this count.
Again, what does one's response to the completed work of Christ have to do with the efficacious saving work of Christ in behalf of His people? ALL for whom Christ died WILL come to Him. (Jh 6:37, 39)


Romans 8:29-39 (ASV) "For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God [is] for us, who [is] against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."


For the very last time . . . The salvation merited by Christ's active obedience (righteousness imputed) and passive obedience (vicarious substitution death) was COMPLETE. From all eternity, the triune God decreed that a remnant of Adam's fallen race would be saved. To that end Christ came into the world to save those whom the Father gave Him. The penalty for their sins was atoned for and the perfect righteousness demanded by the law is imputed to them. The Holy Spirit works regeneration in these elect individuals at God's appointed time creating faith in the heart and a new nature by which they are enabled to repent of their sins and flee to Christ believing upon Him unto justification. Hence forth the Spirit dwells within them working sanctification until they are called home to await the final judgment at which time they are glorified. It is impossible that those predestinated to salvation in Christ will remain in their sinful state and reject either the Lord Christ as their Redeemer-Savior or His vicarious substitutionary work for them. All others will continue in their rebellious state hating God, His Christ and all that is holy and good until the end and even through eternity being justly cast into perdition as they were appointed.

In His grace,


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xyz #39621 Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:50 PM
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Pilgrim said:
Methinks that there is yet another error concerning a fundamental issue; the Gospel. There is nothing in the Gospel which indiscriminately declares that any particular individual's debt has been paid. What the biblical Gospel declares is that Christ has died for sinners and all who come to Him in repentance and faith will have their sins remitted.
Quote, please?

John 1:12-13 (ASV) "But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Acts 2:37-39 (ASV) "Now when they heard [this,] they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do? And Peter [said] unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him."

Acts 3:19 (ASV) "Repent ye therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that so there may come seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord;"

Luke 24:45-47 (ASV) "Then opened he their mind, that they might understand the scriptures; and he said unto them, Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer, and rise again from the dead the third day; and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name unto all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem."

Mark 1:14-15 (ASV) "Now after John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe in the gospel."

Acts 5:30-31 (ASV) "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree. Him did God exalt with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins."

Acts 10:42-43 (ASV) "And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God [to be] the Judge of the living and the dead. To him bear all the prophets witness, that through his name every one that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins."


In His grace,


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Pilgrim #39622 Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:23 AM
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Pilgrim said:
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xyz said:

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Pilgrim said:
Methinks that there is yet another error concerning a fundamental issue; the Gospel. There is nothing in the Gospel which indiscriminately declares that any particular individual's debt has been paid. What the biblical Gospel declares is that Christ has died for sinners and all who come to Him in repentance and faith will have their sins remitted.
Quote, please?

Acts 2:37-39 (ASV) "Now when they heard [this,] they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do? And Peter [said] unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him."

Acts 3:19 (ASV) "Repent ye therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that so there may come seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord;"

These quotes show that remission is, in effect, operative through faith, and releases the conscience to allow the Holy Spirit to operate to produce good works. Neither of them (nor any other of the quotes) indicates that faith is the trigger for remission as far as God is concerned. As far as He is concerned, justice was a 'done deal' when Jesus cried, "It is finished." As far as human conscience is concerned, there is remission, blotting out of the consciousness of sin, only when there is repentance and faith. That is because to fail to repent and believe is to place (or retain) one's own conscience under law, and inescapably so. So while God's sovereignty cannot be impugned because Jesus accounted for sin against Him, and God's whole legal requirement is satisfied, the obstinate human conscience is not.

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These quotes show that remission is, in effect, operative through faith, and releases the conscience to allow the Holy Spirit to operate to produce good works. Neither of them (nor any other of the quotes) indicates that faith is the trigger for remission as far as God is concerned. As far as He is concerned, justice was a 'done deal' when Jesus cried, "It is finished." As far as human conscience is concerned, there is remission, blotting out of the consciousness of sin, only when there is repentance and faith. That is because to fail to repent and believe is to place (or retain) one's own conscience under law, and inescapably so. So while God's sovereignty cannot be impugned because Jesus accounted for sin against Him, and God's whole legal requirement is satisfied, the obstinate human conscience is not.
Okay..... either: 1) you are totally incapable of comprehending biblical theology nor interpreting Scripture according to its own hermeneutical principles, and/or 2) all this is nothing more than an amusing venture on your part. shrug

Regardless of which it is the truth remains that Christ's death was intended specifically for a specific number of individuals. For them, redemption was accomplished in full and it is applied when the Holy Spirit sovereignly and secretly works regeneration in them and infallibly brings them to Christ via repentance and faith. The result (conversion) is the "remission of sins", aka: justification. This is ALL a legal process albeit personal from conversion onward where the person is conscious of what is going on, at least in part. Assurance, the possession of a good conscience toward God varies greatly although it increases throughout the individual's life in sanctification. This is the biblical teaching and that which the historic Protestant Church has embraced and taught which can be evidenced in all the Reformation Confessions and Catechisms.

Now, you can do with this truth as you wish. Should you choose to reject it, that is to your own peril and effectively placing yourself outside the camp.

"No stone, nor steel, nor diamond is so hard as the impenitent heart of man." -- Luther

In His grace,


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Pilgrim #39624 Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:08 PM
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Pilgrim said:
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xyz said:
These quotes show that remission is, in effect, operative through faith, and releases the conscience to allow the Holy Spirit to operate to produce good works. Neither of them (nor any other of the quotes) indicates that faith is the trigger for remission as far as God is concerned. As far as He is concerned, justice was a 'done deal' when Jesus cried, "It is finished." As far as human conscience is concerned, there is remission, blotting out of the consciousness of sin, only when there is repentance and faith. That is because to fail to repent and believe is to place (or retain) one's own conscience under law, and inescapably so. So while God's sovereignty cannot be impugned because Jesus accounted for sin against Him, and God's whole legal requirement is satisfied, the obstinate human conscience is not.
Quote
Christ's death was intended specifically for a specific number of individuals.
It is quite true that, had God known that there would be none of His creation who loved the truth, creation of the cosmos and the crucifixion would have been pointless. But the existence of some who would love the truth made necessary that creation, with its ample opportunity for rebellion against God. And because all would rebel, all would have to have their rebellion accounted for, with not one claiming impunity. So the Christ had to die for all, though for the sake of only those who would treat that death as their salvation.

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