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Quote
BradJHammond said:
Again, I am in total agreement. But while I see a lot in there about total depravity, I do not see anything about original or imputed guilt. I am fully aware that Owen, Packer, and Pink (and MacArthur, Boice, and Spurgeon) all believe in original guilt; but again, I would like to see evidence that any of them have made this belief integral to their evangelistic preaching or proclamation of the gospel.
Whoa! [Linked Image] Methinks there is some misunderstanding here and perhaps I am guilty of not being clear? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" />

My concern was from my understanding or misunderstanding you as saying that it is unnecessary to include in the Gospel message the condition of sinners; i.e., they are 1) under the wrath of God (imputation of Adam's guilty) and 2) at enmity with God (inherited depraved nature). It is a rare thing today to hear any such thing concerning man's fallen spiritual condition. The emphasis invariably is upon the sinner to DO something and the various Madison Avenue sales techniques and/or psychological appeals to evoke a response.

You have no argument from me in all that you wrote in your response as it is all true, IMHO and fully in accord with historic biblical Christianity (aka: Calvinism). So again, I was assuredly not focusing upon merely the aspect of Adam's imputed guilt but "Original Sin" in its fullness which shows all men are under the wrath of God by nature (Eph 2:1-5; Rom 1:18ff; 5:16, 18; 8:1 (guilt assumed)) as well as totally depraved in their nature and thus unwilling and unable to turn to God by faith in Christ, never mind love Him and repent of their sins.

I do hope I have now cleared up any misunderstanding I might have caused? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

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Pilgrim #39714 Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:12 PM
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Pilgrim said:
I do hope I have now cleared up any misunderstanding I might have caused?

Indeed, and perhaps it was a result of my not being very clear in my initial post. As I said above, I am more of an irenicist than a polemicist; therefore, I tend to focus on what someone like Warren says that is right, hoping to encourage them, or at least those who follow them into the fulness of the Faith. But the Church needs both polemics and irenics, and just as the polemicist needs to occasionally be encouraged to be charitable and say something positive or encouraging, the irenicist frequently needs to be shown how thin the line dividing error from heresy truly is. Of course, I'm speaking here of true irenicists (like J. I. Packer) and not spineless liberal compromisers, syncretists, or man-pleasers.

Again, to Johan I would say, it is not the end of the world if your elders are looking at Warren's book. Share your concerns, encourage them to sift, sift, and sift (there may be nothing left), and above all encourage them to use something better. If they simply MUST have something "up to date" with numbered lists and to-do agendas, give them a copy of Mark Dever's Nine Marks of a Healthy Church[/i]. For all its strengths, it doesn't have a chapter focusing on worship, and for that I'd suggest Mike Horton's [i]A Better Way and/or Marva Dawn's Reaching Out without Dumbing Down[/i]. Apart from his weak, shallow, and frequently erroneous theology, Rick Warren is a philistine of the order of Goliath, with no eye or ear for beauty or grandeur. While one can find a few useful points in some parts of his book, [i]The Purpose-Driven Church, his ecclesiology is unredeemable and the chapter on worship is an absolute abomination with NOTHING of value and much that is shockingly offensive. ENJOY! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/coffee2.gif" alt="" />


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Oh goody, I learned two new words "irenicist" and "polemicist". <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/ClapHands.gif" alt="" />

Judging from their meanings, at least how I understand them; I also am somewhat of an irenicist. Mainly because I consider myself a people person and I get a better response when I try to stick with being an irenicist. That is not saying that I don't act like a polemicist from time to time.

I think it is a great idea to offer people better alternatives than the Purpose Driven drivel.

Tom

Tom #39716 Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:32 PM
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While we are called to "be at peace with one another" Mark 9:50b as I understand you to be saying, we are still to be a salt Mark 9:50 Salt is good, but if the salt has lost its saltiness, how will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.” That is without diluting the truth found in scripture. While it may sound as though irenicism is likened to being at peace with men, it maybe actually fearing what men might think of us should we speak boldly a word of truth. So what does scripture say we are to be like? If we see a person about to fall into a boiling cauldron, should we act boldly and speak the truth or should we be muddle mouthed and weak? If it was me who was about to fall, I would dearly hope to be warned with great boldness that might save my life.

You seem to like diplomacy which is an attribute that I do admire, yet, there are times when one must act boldly and definitively which is biblical and loving.


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Tom Offline
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Thank you I appreciate your concern.
If irenicism is associated with the fear of man, then I definitely agree with you. However, I have noticed that sometimes when we are stating the truth to someone, they are offended not by the truth, but by the manner we state the truth.
If you have read any of the threads that xyz is in, you will notice that I am not afraid to rebuke someone.
In xyz case, I have tried to give him the benefit of the doubt on many occasions, however the evidence points that I was wasting my time so I told him. I believe that he/she is feigning sincerity.
If I error on one side or another, it isn’t that I am not trying, it isn’t always easy to know someone’s heart.
That isn’t to say that I always do this, because all of us have feet of clay.

Tom

Last edited by Tom; Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:36 PM.
Johan #39718 Sat Jun 07, 2008 1:38 PM
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Its called compromise! That is what scripture says will happen right? Men will search for preaching that tickles the ears and whats worse is when our shepherds dilute and/or distort true gospel to either raise or maintain the numbers in attendance! Christ will build His church and the gates of hell will not prevail over it! That said, I guess I'd be looking for a solid church that isnt afraid to be true to scripture! Paul told Timothy to 'Preach the Word'. That is what pastors will be held accountable for doing! They will be held to a higher standard and the current flood of compromise says so many are going with what the crowd delights to hear! Very sad!!

Pilgrim #39719 Sat Jun 07, 2008 6:05 PM
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This is the problem with seeker-friendly churches and thus their pastors. Unless we see God's Holiness and the depth of our sin before Him, why do we need a Savior? Maybe to increase our self esteem or help solve our problems, or just generally make us feel better. Jesus saved us from the Wrath of God. I think in our day, we hardly ever hear about His Wrath and how much God hates sin. He hates it so much Jesus had to die to satisfy His Wrath. Salvation is too precious to be taken lightly as Rick Warren's message proclaims. Just ask Jesus into your heart and Welcome to God's family.
Anathema, I say

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