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#40563
Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:04 PM
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Although a paedo-baptist, I've been studying the issue with my wife from anew recently. I've tried to listen/read a lot from both sides of the issue. One of the main lines of arguments for credo-baptists is the Great Commission, e.g., Matthew 28:19-20, Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." I think (correct me if I am wrong) that under a credo-baptist assumption, disciples = true Christians. This may be true of paedo-baptists also. It was/is for me. However, I found the following statement while reading through the Puritan Board (near the middle of the thread by Semper Fidelis) http://www.puritanboard.com/f122/i-am-rethinking-being-credo-paedobaptists-36036/Fundamentally, baptism is for disciples - those that are to be trained in the fear and admonition of the Lord. Disciple does not mean elect but it does mean that the person is in the visible Church and is under obligation to believe in Christ and the Church is under obligation to train him in everything that Christ commanded. Note that the Great Commission is to make disciples: baptizing and teaching them everything Christ has commanded. Hence, those that are disciples are to be baptized and taught. Again, viewed properly it is perfectly compatible with a view of Hebrews that then warns such disciples of the dangers of being brought near all these spiritual blessings and then shirking away in disbelief. Simply noting that some are reprobate does not let men and women off the hook - they are under obligation and as the Church does not know who the reprobate are we are all commanded to fear together, strive together, and not forsake our assembling together.
Finally, it is apparently obvious that both the Old Testament and New Testament Scriptures command the training of children in the fear and admonition of the Lord. Children are disciples by definition and by command of the Apostle and are to be baptized as disciples. When we properly understand baptism's role to mark out visible membership as well as promise salvation to all who believe then we properly understand why both children and professors are to be baptized. If we truly believe that only the elect are to be baptized then neither children nor professors ought to be baptized by the visible Church. But, because baptism does not confer union with Christ nor is it performed by the Church to state that a person has true faith but is a promise of salvation and only confers its benefits promised upon the elect, then baptism is appropriate for professors and their children. My question is whether the word "disciple" as used in the Great Commission is referring to making (of course God does the actual "making") "true Christians" or does it have a more general meaning as stated by the quote? Thanks, John
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john said:
My question is whether the word "disciple" as used in the Great Commission is referring to making (of course God does the actual "making") "true Christians" or does it have a more general meaning as stated by the quote? John, The word referred to in Matt 28:19 in the Greek is matheteuo, which most often means, teach, disciple, instruct, to become a pupil. There is no reference to salvation inherent in the word. Thus, the text is clearly not saying that those sent by Jesus were to "make true Christians", but rather to "teach" those who professed faith. Secondly, this passage should not and cannot be used to build a doctrine of baptism; either paedo or credo. It would be plain foolish to even try. The passage is simply stating what Jesus said to His own disciples... As you are going about in your travels, preach the Gospel, teach those who profess interest in Christ, baptize them in the name of the Triune God and instruct them to observe the teachings of Christ. The main focus is upon adults and doesn't even try to deal with the question of adults vs children and baptism. Secondly, that this practice was to be done everywhere and not restricted to Jerusalem nor even Israel. And thirdly, it contains the promise that Jesus Christ would be with them (via His Holy Spirit), i.e., the Spirit would attend their preaching and teaching in the establishment of churches (bodies of believers). In His grace,
![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/pilgrim/pil_sig2.gif) simul iustus et peccator![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/Smileys/pencil.gif)
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We paedobaptists do not reject believer's baptism! We believe that converts should be baptized. The only difference is that we include the convert's children.
Simply put: We practice both believer's baptism and covenant baptism.
Credobaptists believe in and practice only believer's baptism.
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Robin said:
Credobaptists believe in and practice only believer's baptism. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/nope.gif" alt="" /> They "claim" they practice "believers" baptism, but in fact they practice "professors" baptism. For even they have to admit that not all who are baptized are infallibly saved, aka: believers. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/evilgrin.gif" alt="" />
simul iustus et peccator
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Robin said:
We paedobaptists do not reject believer's baptism! We believe that converts should be baptized. The only difference is that we include the convert's children.
Simply put: We practice both believer's baptism and covenant baptism. Indeed!!! Apart from the more frequent paedobaptisms, I have also witnessed quite a number of credobaptisms in our church. Johan
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Pilgrim,please excuse my ignorance as there is not much between my ears and even less above them <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/gramps.gif" alt="" />
what is a Paedo/Credo baptist.
P.S. i have learn't a lot from you all over the few years.
john.a
Ps 34:6 This poor man cried, and the LORD heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles.
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Head Honcho
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john a said:Pilgrim,please excuse my ignorance as there is not much between my ears and even less above them <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/gramps.gif" alt="" /> what is a Paedo/Credo baptist. 1. Paedo: Child, infant, thus one who baptizes infants, aka: Infant Baptist or Covenantal Baptist. 2. Credo: profession, I believe, thus one who baptizes those who believe or at least profess faith. As others have pointed out, Paedobaptists don't restrict baptism to infants. They also baptize those who make a credible profession of faith. However, with some exceptions (hyper-covenantalists) Paedobaptists do NOT believe that baptism INDICATES, i.e., it is a infallible SIGN of the recipient's salvation. Baptism is a outward sign to be sure, but of God's redeeming grace in Christ Jesus to all who have true saving faith. It is a physical demonstration of the Gospel, i.e., as the water used washes away the filth of the body, so does Christ's blood cleanse the soul of sin. But again, faith is a prerequisite to that actual cleansing (justification). <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Thus, in one sense, it doesn't matter who is being baptized in regard to what baptism means, in and of itself. For the saving grace of God never changes. In that we should rejoice. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" /> In His grace,
simul iustus et peccator
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thanks Pilgrim, much appreceiated.
every blessing.
john.a
Ps 34:6 This poor man cried, and the LORD heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles.
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