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#40799 Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:32 AM
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We had this question in our bible study yesterday. We are studying Exodus and are in chap 24. There were those who answered yes but I was strongly a no.
Question: Explain whether or not a person can obey God before he receives the sacrifice of Christ's blood.
Your thoughts?


Be killing sin or it will be killing you. John Owen
muchforgiven #40800 Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:00 AM
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What do you mean by obedience? There are those who obey outwardly. i.e. even the Pharisees were noted for their obedience in the outward sense. We have some examples of this in the Parable of the Sower, there are those noted who obey outwardly. Matthew 13; Mark 4; Luke 8. Matthew 23:28 speaks of those who outwardly appear righteous but inwardly are full of hypocrisy. And Romans 2:28 again speaks of outward signs.

We need to distinguish outward conformity with an inward conformity which would be an obedience of faith.

Consider that with what was said by John the Baptist in Matthew 3:8. The unregenerate in one sense can "obey" many aspects of God's law yet they are not in keeping with repentance because they are done outwardly and there is no inward obedience, seen by a lack of repentance.

chestnutmare #40801 Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:58 PM
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THE QUESTION WAS ASKED IN LIGHT OF EX 24:3 "MOSES CAME AND TOLD THE PEOPLE ALL THE WORDS OF THE LORD AND ALL THE RULES. AND ALL THE PEOPLE ANSWERED WITH ONE VOICE AND SAID, " ALL THE WORDS THAT THE LORD HAS SPOKEN WE WILL DO".
THE NEXT FEW VERSES GO ON TO SAY HOW MOSES AND THE PEOPLE OFFERED BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES AND SPRINKLED THE BLOOD ON THE ALTAR. THEN IN VERSE 7 IT SAYS AGAIN "ALL THAT THE LORD HAS SPOKEN WE WILL DO AND WE WILL BE OBEDIENT".
SO WERE THEY OBEDIENT BEFORE OR AFTER THE SACRIFICE AND THE SPRINKLING OF THE BLOOD?


Be killing sin or it will be killing you. John Owen
muchforgiven #40802 Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:34 PM
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...SO WERE THEY OBEDIENT BEFORE OR AFTER THE SACRIFICE AND THE SPRINKLING OF THE BLOOD?


Can you expand a little bit on this question. I'm having a hard time understanding what's the conundrum here.

muchforgiven #40803 Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:23 PM
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muchforgiven said:
THE QUESTION WAS ASKED IN LIGHT OF EX 24:3 "MOSES CAME AND TOLD THE PEOPLE ALL THE WORDS OF THE LORD AND ALL THE RULES. AND ALL THE PEOPLE ANSWERED WITH ONE VOICE AND SAID, " ALL THE WORDS THAT THE LORD HAS SPOKEN WE WILL DO".
THE NEXT FEW VERSES GO ON TO SAY HOW MOSES AND THE PEOPLE OFFERED BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES AND SPRINKLED THE BLOOD ON THE ALTAR. THEN IN VERSE 7 IT SAYS AGAIN "ALL THAT THE LORD HAS SPOKEN WE WILL DO AND WE WILL BE OBEDIENT".
SO WERE THEY OBEDIENT BEFORE OR AFTER THE SACRIFICE AND THE SPRINKLING OF THE BLOOD?


Please, we can hear you just fine so you don't have to type so LOUD!


.

jadeitedrake0 #40804 Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:42 PM
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I'm having a bit of difficulty too, but I have a feeling that someone has taken this passage in Exodus and proposed that the "sacrifice and sprinkling of blood" equates to justification or even perhaps regeneration (admittedly, a huge stretch). And thus, the question could be whether a person can obey God (acceptably) before they are saved or only after they are saved.

Now <font size="4">IF</font> my suspicion is correct and the above is what the questioner is driving at, the entire issue is a mute one since such an interpretation of the passage is erroneous. The Israelites were giving an assent to the OUTWARD keeping of the law of God, which even then it was grossly presumptuous on their part. The requirements of the law rightly understood, which we now know from the New Testament Gospels and Epistles far exceed what any man, unregenerate or regenerate can possibly do; albeit held accountable for.

The biblical truth is, NO MAN (except the Lord Jesus Christ) is capable of keeping the law perfectly, which is absolutely necessary, in his fallen state; regenerate or unregenerate!

But, it would be helpful indeed if the OP would try and clarify things a bit so that such speculative musings which I have thrown into the mix here wouldn't be necessary. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,


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William #40805 Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:39 AM
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So sorry, I didn't realize I was shouting.My understanding of the question was as Pilgrim so clearly stated in his post, that the idea was whether a person can truly obey God before the blood od Christ covers him or her. I guess I was asking if anyone else saw something different. The answer is obvious then, as only throughth the righteousness of Christ, can we have any hope of obeying God. Thanks for clarifying it in my own mind, Pilgrim. I got confused when some of the ladies answered yes saying a person can obey God's civil law as our laws are based on God's law.
All this being said, I think it was a trick question


Be killing sin or it will be killing you. John Owen
muchforgiven #40806 Thu Nov 27, 2008 12:17 PM
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muchforgiven,

1) Well, there is this thing called "Internet Protocol" that says using ALL CAPS is akin to SHOUTING! [Linked Image] Who dreamed this up is unknown to me and of course, it is all arbitrary. But, it and many other things like this have become an accepted standard, much like Emily Post's "Rules of Etiquette". <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" /> In these things we often have to learn as we go. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

2) It is surely true that everyone without exception can to some degree obey OUTWARDLY the law of God and of man. The "rich young ruler" is a prime example of someone who strove to conform his life to God's law in this manner, cf. Matt 19:20; Mk 20:20; Lk 18:21 and especially here:

Quote
Romans 2:14-15 (KJV) "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)"
Even the apostle Paul himself once thought this outward conformity to the law was sufficient in itself, cf. Rom 7:7ff. However, when the "spirit" of the law, i.e., the immeasurable depth of the law of God is made known, either through the preaching, teaching or reading of God's Word it becomes immediately evident that no one can keep it perfectly; nor even have a perfect desire to do so. For a true believer, when the Holy Spirit brings true conviction upon the heart, that person is thrust wholly upon the Lord Jesus Christ and His all-sufficient atoning work for them. For it was His perfect active obedience that is imputed to the believer for righteousness, 2Cor 5:21. Yet, the heart is also moved with desire to do all the works of righteousness and holiness which God requires so as to please Him (cf. Eph 4:24), even knowing that even the best of efforts will fall short, yet... without condemnation. (cf. Psa 119:165; Jh 14:15; 15:10; 1Jh 2:3-5; 5:2, 3; Rom 5:1; 8:1, 2).

Have a blessed Thanksgiving Day,


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muchforgiven #40807 Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:01 AM
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I'm sorry too it was just a little good-natured teasing. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/3stooges.gif" alt="" />
I hope Pilgrim's replies helped answer your question.


Welcome to the Highway, <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/hello.gif" alt="" />
William

William #40808 Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:40 PM
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Is it possible to obey God even for the regenerate? Don't our efforts to obey God only reveal to us the depth of our depravity and our need to trust in Him who obeyed the Father perfectly? Please help me understand this difficult concept. When I hear sermons about obedience I have to re-read Romans 7 to avoid utter depression and despair.

Relztrah #40809 Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:10 AM
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Relztrah said:
Is it possible to obey God even for the regenerate? Don't our efforts to obey God only reveal to us the depth of our depravity and our need to trust in Him who obeyed the Father perfectly?
The answer to your questions are, Yes and Yes! All men are accountable to God to obey His law perfectly, without regard to one's ability. Ability does not negate Responsibility. As creatures created in the image of God men are always and forever obligated to submit to all that God wills, i.e., His "preceptive will"; that which God has revealed in regard to what He requires.

It is possible for all men to obey God's law "outwardly" (superficially) as shown here and which was noted from this passage:


Romans 2:14-15 (KJV) "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)"


We also know that: "...by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.", (Rom 3:20) And, "for the law worketh wrath..." (Rom 4:15a) And, "And the law came in besides, that the trespass might abound;..." (Rom 5:20a) The law of God can never justify anyone for no one is capable of keeping the law perfectly. And even if there was a man (except for Christ Who was born without sin) who could keep the law perfectly, it would not be sufficient to remove the imputed guilt of Adam; aka: Original Sin. It is very important to understand the "three-fold division of the law", which the Reformed Churches have historically held; moral, civil and ceremonial — (cf., Westminster Confession of Faith 19:3-5). And lastly, we must distinguish between the "two-fold use" of the law; 1) as a foundation of preaching the Gospel (see: Preaching the Law of God) to bring conviction of sin and 2) as a rule of life for the believer (see the several articles under the heading The Christian and the Moral Law.

The true believer need not become discouraged nor frustrate the grace of God given due to the inability to keep the law perfectly. To even think this way is to fall into legalism. It is the perfect Active Obedience of Christ which is imputed to the believer for righteousness (2Cor 5:21). In fact, it was God's eternal purpose in sending forth His Son to atone for those whom He predestinated to salvation that they would be holy (perfectly righteous), see Rom 8:29; Eph 1:4; 5:27; 1Cor 1:30; Col 3:12; 2Tim 1:9. Thus, it is out of a heart, changed in regeneration from one of fear (condemned before God) to one of adoration, gratitude and love (accepted of God) that a believer strives to obey the law of God knowing such is pleasing to Him. (Rom 5:1; 8:1, 29-39)

In His grace,


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