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#40832 Fri Nov 28, 2008 9:57 PM
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Do the tribulation positions - pre, partial, mid, and post - only apply to those adhering to a premillennial view? Or will the Posttribulation view be held by amils and postmils as well?


John Chaney

"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
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It is my understanding that with in Dispensationalism there are three positions: Pre-trib, Mid-trib, and Post-trib.
However those three positions should not be mixed up with Historic Premillenialism, Amillenialism, or Post-Millenialism.
Does that answer your question?

Tom

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Tom, yes you answered the question I was after, but I am not sure that you are totally correct on this. There are several well-known historic premills that is put in the postribulation camp, too. If that is correct, then the posttribulation view goes along with historic premills.


John Chaney

"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
John_C #40835 Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:31 AM
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John

If you are interested in finding out more about this, the Highway has some articles that you might find what you are looking for.
You can find them here .

Tom

John_C #40836 Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:30 AM
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John_C said:

There are several well-known historic premills that is put in the postribulation camp, too. If that is correct, then the posttribulation view goes along with historic premills.

From pages 180-181 of "The Bible and the Future" by Anthony Hoekema, A kindly written book from an Ammillennial perspective that also fairly presents the three other Millennial views. A very easy book to read and understand.

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According to historic premillennialism, a number of events must happen before Christ returns: the evangelization of the nations, the great tribulation, the great apostasy or rebellion, and the appearance of a personal antichrist. The church must go through this final tribulation. The Second coming of Christ will not be a two stage event, but a single occurrence. When Christ comes again, believers who have died will be raised, believers who are still living will be transformed and glorified, and then both groups will be caught up in the air. After this meeting in the air, believers will accompany the descending Christ to earth. . . .


Book can be found used at:

heritagebooks.org for $10.00

-OR-

New at Mongerism

John_C #40837 Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:32 AM
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See here: Historic premillennialism (Wikipedia article)


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John_C #40838 Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:36 PM
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John

You are correct, I was wrong about that.
According to Wipipedia another name for Historic Premillenialism is Post-Tribulationism.
The only major difference between Dispensational Pre-Tribulationism and Historic Premillenialism is their understanding of the Church and Israel.

Tom

John_C #40839 Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:06 PM
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John it would be helpful for me if you could possibly define what you mean by "Tribulation". And to who in particular it applies to.


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
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I am not defining tribulation here. Whatever the people who ascribe to the tribulation views is what I am going with. As Pilgrim pointed out, only premills talk of tribulation as is meant in the various tribulation views. Apparently, posttribulation and historic premillennialism are basically the same.

Personally, I see tribulation for believers occuring from the 1st century to the Second Coming. Though, I can see that this tribulation will be more intense toward the end.


John Chaney

"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
Tom #40841 Sat Nov 29, 2008 7:48 PM
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Tom said:

The only major difference between Dispensational Pre-Tribulationism and Historic Premillenialism is their understanding of the Church and Israel.

Tom,

The understanding of the Church and Israel is not the only major difference but a major difference between dispensational premillennialism and historic premillennialism.

The dispensational premillenial view holds that the Second coming of Christ will be a two stage event.

The historic premillennial view holds that the second coming of Christ will not be a two stage event, but a single occurrence.

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Wikipedia/Historic premillennialism said:

A major difference of historic and dispensational premillennialism is the view of the church in relation to Israel. Historics do not see as sharp a distinction between Israel and the church as the dispensationalists do, but instead view Christians of all ages as part of one group, now revealed as the body of Christ. Thus, historic premillennialists see no issue with the church going through the Great Tribulation, and so they do not need a separate pre-tribulational rapture of some believers as the dispensational system requires.



Have a good Lord's day,
William

John_C #40842 Sat Nov 29, 2008 7:58 PM
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John_C said:
Personally, I see tribulation for believers occuring from the 1st century to the Second Coming. Though, I can see that this tribulation will be more intense toward the end.
I certainly would concur that there will be a period of tribulation just before the Lord returns that will exceed any and all tribulation which this world has ever experienced before. (cf. Matt 24:22; Rev 11:7-9; 20:3b, 4-9a) That which immediately precedes the Lord's return is described by the Lord Himself as:


Matthew 24:29-31 (ASV) "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


In His grace,


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William #40843 Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:04 AM
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William

Thanks for the correction, what you said was basically what I was trying to say.

Tom

William #40844 Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:49 PM
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I have gone from a pre-trib rapture believer to
a pre-wrath rapture view.


Jude 3
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Readin #40845 Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:54 PM
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I will have to do some reading from your list of articles on this subject. They look long. So I will make some time later this week. I realize I can no longer assume what I was taught as a new believer is correct. Just as I have learned that all these years I was an Arminian, now I am not. God is at work in correcting faulty beliefs in me.


Jude 3
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[Linked Image] Just a note about posting. I noticed that it was a but a few minutes after you replied to William that you responded again in a separate reply. Perhaps that was your intention. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" /> However, if the second reply was due to an after-thought to the first, which you would have included if it had been resident in the cerebral synapses, then you could have added what you wrote to your first reply. There is a 6 hour "grace period" here on this Board whereby you can "Edit" a post/reply by simply clicking on the "Edit" button... now there's a sophisticated methodology, eh? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

So, just in case you didn't know about the "Edit" feature and the 6 hour open time allowed, there you go. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


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