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#41168 Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:53 PM
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Or Window on Hymenæan Heresy.

The purpose here is to ,from time to time , present some current renderings from Full Preterist (Hymies) as they relate to specific issues, with as little as possible commentary as needed to understand the gist of the postings. Excepting that the handles are removed no changes will be made the posts will appear as they did originally. References on request.



Below is a portion of a fine contra-hymie article by Jim West. If you dont know much about this dangerous heresy I suggest you follow the link to the entire posting.

Quote
Paul's Assessment of Hymenæn Theology

How then should we treat those who embrace Hymenænism and yet claim to wear the badge of Christianity? We must look to Paul's charge to Timothy. Paul tells us that the Hymenæns have "erred with respect to the truth" ( 2 Tim. 2:18 ). Erring with regard to the truth means that we have erred about the "truth of the Gospel." His description of the Hymenæns is not that they have erred with respect to one truth among many Gospel truths. On the contrary, their error is a capital error; the whole truth has been denied.

Their preterist resurrection theology has overthrown the faith of some. This is a powerful indictment. Not merely the faith by which we believe, but The Faith that we believe is defeated, destroyed.

The teachings of the Hymenæns are labeled a "canker," a gangrene, perhaps a cancer. The Greek word could be a medical word or a word describing oxidation. If the former, then, the church is compared to a living organism. A malignancy or a gangrene can only destroy this organism! Hymenæn theology is a cancer in the living organism of the church.

Hymenæns also make "shipwreck" of the Faith ( 1 Tim. 1:19 ). The shipwreck is a religious shipwreck. Hymenænism is not a mere pinhole in the hull of the good ship salvation.

The upshot is that we should not be referring to the disciples of Hymenæus as "beloved brethren," as "good friends," as "dear Christian brethren." They are the enemies of Christ and the enemies of the church. The "sons of the resurrection" should not be taken unawares. Hymenæns who are members in Christian churches should be disciplined for their error, even delivered over to Satan so that they would not blaspheme ( 1 Tim. 1:20 ).

If a church unwittingly carries Hymenæn books (such as the Leonards' The Promise of His Coming, or J. Stuart Russell's The Parousia), these books should be torched or removed immediately. No church should pray God's speed on the disciples of Hymenæus. If a church has Hymenæn members, let her admonish or rebuke these subverters at once. We dare not give them the Lord's Supper. We must not let them get away with calling themselves "preterists" or "consistent preterists," or believers in "fulfilled eschatology." The word "preterist" is a good word. The disciples of Hymenæus are not preterists; their "dispensable eschatology" makes them heretics. What is more, they are antichrists; for only the spirit of antichrist says that Jesus Christ did not come in the flesh ( 1 Jn. 4 ff). When we interview new members, we need to question them about Christ's resurrection and ours. Hymenæns are not our friends; they are the enemies of the cross. If we deny the future resurrection of the body then we deny the resurrection of Christ. And if we deny the resurrection of Christ's flesh, then we deny his accomplishment on the cross. The design of Christ's bodily resurrection was to implement His sacrifice on the cross, when He suffered the wrath of God in his body and in his soul. He came to redeem us in body and in soul ( Rom. 8:23; 1 Cor. 6:20 ).

Hymenænism is damnable heresy.

Jim West, a graduate of Westminster Seminary, is pastor of Covenant Reformed Church of Sacramento (Reformed Church in the United States), and the author of booklets on infant baptism and courtship, as well as that "infamous red book," Drinking With Calvin and Luther. He can be reached at 2020 16th Ave., Sacramento, CA 95822.


http://www.reformed.org/eschaton/index.html?mainframe=/eschaton/west_preterism.html



Last edited by Hitch; Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:17 PM.
Hitch #41169 Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:03 PM
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Originally Posted by
Ok, You have leveled at lot of accusations, can you explain how all this deny's the trinity and the atonement...


Sure, here we have a hypepreterist claiming Jesus Christ was not God incarnate.


Quote
Originally Posted by...
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels "for" the suffering of death, crownned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man (Hebrews 2:9).

The fact being if Jesus had remained God (or, been an angel), he could not have suffered, and died for every man!

So much for, hypostatic union!



Here you have a hyperpreterist claiming Christ’s blood was sufficient, folks, like the Apostle who passed on before AD70 weren’t assured of salvation because the temple had not yet come down.[/



Quote
Originally Posted by ,,,,,
Those who attend a church where their pastors tell them they're "saved" are living in a contradiction. Only post-parousia is ANYONE saved. The work of the High Priest was never done until He came back OUT of the holy of holies.



Note; the orthodox comments appear in red the Hymie posts are in the quote boxes.

Hitch #41170 Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:16 PM
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I am not playing the martyr. My life is at peace with God. You guys are however playing the heresy hunters looking to trap and accuse us by those creeds which the traditions of men have produced which they have added to the gospel in order to judge men by them - to condemn them. We are not doing this to you, but you are trying to do this to us.

It's probably a good thing that no computer viruses can be sent thru the forum or someone here would probably try to silence us that way. Hate originates in the heart, which Jesus said is equal to murder. The venom that comes thru the posts here is proof enough who the vipers and scorpions are. And when you get us to respond in kind you rejoice and point the finger at us as 'proof' we are evil.

The Lord has not made the trinity, the hypostatic union or the 2nd visible bodily return of the Lord the test for my faith. Yet men have added these things - things which cannot be proved by scripture - only surmised. Yet because we do not agree with your surmisings, you say we deny Christ.

I am having no problem seeing who the Pharisee is in this scenario. It is the one who is trying to hold fast to his traditions and the position he thinks they give him in the world of religion.

There is nothing new under the sun.
Quote
I agree with you completely, R----. And not only can we see who the Pharisee is but we shall see shortly this modern day Pharisee reject that it is by his/her doing that they have not received Christ's full message of how to conduct one's life in a servant Christ-like attitude.

Note; These posts appeared today, I dont think any comment or set up is needed ,except that these 2 posts and the 2 from the above, are from 4 different authors. H.




Hitch #41171 Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:20 PM
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WOW! I see the downward spiral of HP continues. dizzy crazyeyes

Did I mention that I came to my senses over HP after witnessing a flood of this kind of theological nonsense? whistle


Jim

Jud 1:3 . . . contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

Machaira #41172 Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:25 PM
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Actually it was your responses that helped me decide to start this again after it was lost in the change-over.

Its important for folks to know this disease,like rapturism, is not always fatal.

H

Hitch #41216 Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by P----
There are major issues with a view that holds such a position, but the point of hyperpreterism is that all the Bible indicates God will do in His plan of redemption has been done. This is merely another example of the muddled thinking of hypeprerterists.

P---


Quote
Ok FOLKS Here we have the issue precisely and it shows P--- is not even a Christian. Check it out WHAT A HOOT.
The living God became a human being and was killed on a cross, This infinite being offered up his life to pay the penalty for Gods Elect. An infinite life for an infinite amount of sin was "God plan of redemption".

Redemption was God purpose for the incarnation. Tell us O big brain how Gods plan is not accomplished. In your eyes how is Gods plan incomplete.

The Gospel/good news is "the kingdom of God is at hand repent and enter in".
The Gospel/good news is not The kingdom of God is at hand, repent and when Christ returns someday you might enter in if believe like me.
Pt has added the return of Christ to the Gospel. Talk about a heretic.
Pt has a low view of God because he believe that god did not acomplish his plan of redemption and Does not believe the scripture is inspired and infallible because it clearly says "it is finished"

Note; the orthodox comments appear in red the Hymie posts are in the quote boxes


Last edited by Hitch; Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:04 PM.
Hitch #41235 Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:29 PM
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Quote
Originally Posted by T---
All full Preterist believe that Christs real body was resurrected. If you have proof somewhere that any Full Preterist denies the actuall resurrection of Christs body then show me.

My response to the above:
Originally Posted by Hitch
The first Hymie I came across made the claim Christ was raised spiritually not bodily and could not answer why the Tomb was empty.


Rxxx responds to me this am:
Quote
Too many queers just love the flesh of Jesus, refusing to believe scriptures. Jesus was raised physically for witnesses, then returned to the Father and received the promise of the Holy Spirit, and now Christ comes to the saints in Spirit and Truth...you know, "Christ in you, the hope of glory". It is those who just love His flesh, those limp-wristed kind, who have nothing but tradition, supporting the history of a corrupt church system torturing and killing many saints of God, being accusers of the brethren, who twist Gods word to sustain their lust of the flesh, reprobate minded, who in true essence deny the divinity of Christ.


Note: I could not supply a quote as when I heard this, that Christ had not been raised physically, it was a posting on a forum not in book form.

Hitch #41236 Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:50 PM
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Is the Highway Discussion Board being used to post a discussion taking place elsewhere? If it is I think this is wrong. I apologize if I'm mistaken. This thread is hard for me to follow.

William




William #41239 Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by William
Is the Highway Discussion Board being used to post a discussion taking place elsewhere? If it is I think this is wrong. I apologize if I'm mistaken. This thread is hard for me to follow.

William
The purpose is clearly laid out in the OP.

This thread is for those interested in the emerging Hyper Preterist (Full Preterist- Hymie) movement, a dangerous and deadly heresy. Before starting this thread I confirmed this as heresy with Pilgrim, that thread was lost in the recent changeover.
In more detail ,my purpose here is to give folks a snapshot view of recent (usually 1-5 days old) actual quotes from devotees of this doctrine , the posts are unedited ,except for the handles, and I add the least possible notation while still trying to set the context. This is difficult as your complaint demonmstrates. The Hymaean heretics are a growing and extremely dangerous cult and must be countered.

To respond directly to your complaint;

You may be correct, yours is the first negative comment I"ve received, but if the nature of the thread troubles you by all means bring it up formally. I will continue until the Admistration says otherwise or interest is lost. In a discussion of the negative aspects of the RCC or Dispensationalism no one would have any trouble with quotes from RCC or Dispensational sources . In fact I would hope such would be insisted on, this being a higher plane forum than some. I dont see much difference in what I'm attempting.
Second, while its obviosly awkward and understandably hard to follow I think its better that the posts be presented with as little comment as possible, allowing them to "'speak for themselves". I reckon this a good way to expose the subtle and onerous tactics used. By all means comments are invited in response. The idea being for me to keep my self as detached as possible.
Third, ifyadontlikethemdontreadthem. As above if you think its 'wrong' bring it up , if that is the case there will be no hard feelings on my part, just get to it so I dont waste any more time Ok?

Take care

H

In the mean please follow the link in the OP









Last edited by Hitch; Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:18 PM. Reason: dontask
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Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mxxxx
The teaching of the trinity is not a doctrine of Christ, it is one proferred by men.

Again, your lack of understanding history is really hurting you. The doctrine of the "trinity" developed due to a claim by Arius that Jesus Christ was a created "being" and not God. This ran contrary to what had been handed down and what the vast majority of Christians believed and the rest shall we say is history. Once one comes to understand Christ is indeed God, the Holy Spirit follows close behind. The major argument regarding the nature of who Christ indeed led to the development doctrine of the trinity. You really ought to get your facts straight. The presupposition in the Evangelist's statement is the denial God came in the flesh, you know the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. The doctrine of Christ is that He was and is indeed God in the flesh.

Pa---


Follow up response to the highlighted above.


Originally Posted by Mxxxx
Quote
Or perhaps a Jehovah's Witness, or a Jew? Or a Mormon who thinks everybody gets to be God - everbody but apparently Jesus that is.

The denial of Christ's deity comes because they do not accept nor believe the gospel. If they believe what IS required for saving faith, the revelation that Jesus is God will be given them.

The Greeks on Mars Hill did not receive this revelation (Jesus as their Judge), because they did not believe the resurrection. Therefore they did not believe the gospel, and did not see that the Unknown God Paul was telling them about was Jesus - which btw Paul never clearly said that to them either. Rather he pointed them to the Creator. Had they believed what he did tell them about the resurrection, no doubt the truth that Jesus is the Logos would have been revealed to them as well.

The creeds are trying to make this trinitarian doctrine the requirement for saving faith without first laying the groundwork for what saving faith requires. And most who put this creed in their statement of faith, put it first - when it probably ought to be the last thing to be considered (if at all).

Setting up a creedal statement by which heresy can then be determined is antithetical to how men are to be brought to saving faith. As men try to improve upon the simple gospel that converts the hearts of men and actually make it more difficult for men to believe in Christ from the record we have been given.

Which is no surprise either that TULIP theology came as the result, as any atheist will tell you is a mischaracterization of the very God we claim to serve. If we would just stick to the record without trying to embellish it, we would no doubt discover more men have been soundly saved and we would be less worried about the heretics we have produced from our meddling.



Note ; Hymies are in the quote box, the orthodox response in red.

Last edited by Hitch; Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:29 PM.
Hitch #41274 Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:29 PM
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Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mxaxaxa
FFP,
And yet a very clear spiritual understanding that was to be gained in witnessing this sign event (symbol/ earthly shadow), was that the dead were being raised just as the temple was about to be destroyed. This is what the futurist and partial preterist (and the idealist?) rejects and puts off to a future appearance of Christ in this earth.

If the dead are not being raised, then is Christ not raised. We have our hope in resurrection upon death because Christ has been raised. This is the only resurrection that has been witnessed in the earth by the living. The manifestation of that truth that Christ was the only way to the Father was not fully revealed to the living until the temple came down. Until then it still looked like Judaism was a way acceptable to God. It was this truth which the cross made available when the veil was torn which was revealed to the saints. But the world & Jewry was going to see it too when the glory of God was manifested in the earth thru this event.

Thus we ought to know that when we come into His presence at death we will be given new bodies at that time because all of these things have been fulfilled from beginning to end as God had declared. The hope of heaven and glory belongs to the saint who has been given eternal life so that he will not see nor taste death when his passing comes. Without this understanding, some hope in a disembodied state at death. Yet this is not what Jesus' own resurrection revealed would be the case for those who were living and believing in Him. The only ones who had to wait a little longer were those who had died before the cross.

I do see that the Idealist view brings a lot for our understanding except as it concerns this important point. We need not spiritualize the resurrection of the dead into something other than what we have been told is our hope. Which this sign event was intended to reveal. Christ in us the hope of glory.


Hitch responds;

And its easy to see why you cited no Scripture in supoport of this heresy

Note the FP is in the quote box the orthodaox response in is red.

Last edited by Hitch; Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:30 PM.
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Seems amazing to me that no one noticed that the Parousia had occurred until the 20th century. Maybe all of the eyewitnesses were raptured in A.D. 70? scratchchin

What a terrible joke God would have played on us if we were now living in the new heavens & earth. ugh In that respect, it is most fortunate that we still await His return.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Hitch #41292 Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:21 PM
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Quote
How to Share the Preterist view of Eschatology

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Consider this approach to sharing the preterist view. I would like for futurists to accept this as a handout with all the scriptures on it so you may see them for yourselves. The following is included in this handout.


************
As we read the Bible, we must keep in mind the hermeneuticial principle of audience relevance, which seeks to discover what the original audience understood a passage to mean. The Bible is written "for" us, but it is not written "to" us. We must seek to understand what Scripture meant to its original audience, then we can apply it to ourselves. As you read the following scriptures, ask yourself these questions: Who is this written to? When was it written? When did they expect Christ to return?


Jesus said to His disciples:

Matthew 10:23 (NKJV) "When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matthew 16:27-28 (NKJV) "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Matthew 24:34 (NKJV) "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

Jesus said to Peter:

John 21:21-22 (NKJV) Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, "But Lord, what about this man (John)?" 22 Jesus said to him, "If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me."

Paul said to the Roman Christians:

Romans 13:11-12 (NKJV) And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.

Romans 16:20 (NKJV) And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Paul said to the Corinthian Christians:

1 Corinthians 1:7-8 (NKJV) so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 7:29-31 (NKJV) But this I say, brethren, the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none, 30 those who weep as though they did not weep, those who rejoice as though they did not rejoice, those who buy as though they did not possess, 31 and those who use this world as not misusing it. For the form of this world is passing away.

1 Corinthians 10:11 (NKJV) Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (NKJV) Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed; 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Paul said to the Philippian Christians:

Philippians 1:6 (NKJV) being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

Philippians 4:5 (NKJV) Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.

Paul said to the Thessalonian Christians:

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (NKJV) For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (NKJV) Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul said to Timothy:

1 Timothy 6:14 (NKJV) that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing,

Paul said to Titus:

Titus 2:12-13 (NKJV) teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

The writer of Hebrews said to the Hebrew Christians:

Hebrews 10:37 (NKJV) "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.

James 5:7-9 (NKJV) Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. 8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. 9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

Peter wrote to Christians:

1 Peter 1:13 (NKJV) Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

1 Peter 4:7 (NKJV) But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers.

John wrote to the seven Churches in Asia Minor:

Revelation 1:1 (NKJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants; things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

Revelation 1:3 (NKJV) Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Jesus said to the first century church of Thyatira:

Revelation 2:25 (NKJV) "But hold fast what you have till I come.

Jesus said to the first century church of Philadelphia:

Revelation 3:11 (NKJV) "Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.

Revelation 22:6-7 (NKJV) Then he said to me, "These words are faithful and true." And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place. 7 "Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."

Revelation 22:10 (NKJV) And he said to me, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.

Revelation 22:12 (NKJV) "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

Revelation 22:20 (NKJV) He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming quickly." Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

Keep in mind audience relevance, which seeks to discover what the original audience understood a passage to mean. He said He was coming soon, He said His coming was "at hand." He said He was coming in the life time of those He was speaking to. He said He was coming in "their generation." You cannot read the New Testament without seeing the imminent expectation that they had for the return of Christ. This has caused problems for many.


************

Note;

How to Share the Preterist view of Eschatology In this line 'Preterist' means Hyper Preterist those who deny the future bodily return of Christ.

H




Last edited by Hitch; Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:22 PM.
Hitch #41293 Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:45 PM
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The 'thousand years,' ended...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1} When satan was 'loosed' from the bottomless pit, to DECEIVE the nations, during the tribulation (Revelation 20:3,7; 13:1-8; Matthew 24:29).

2} Killed the two witnesses in the temple, after they finished their testimony during the tribulation (Revelation 11:7; 17:8,11).

3} Before, the resurrection of the REST of the dead [i.e. the general resurrection] (Revelation 20:5).

The biblical truth, the thousand years END 'before' the coming of Jesus to resurrect the REST of the dead [i.e. general resurrection] Revelation 20:5; John 5:28,29; Daniel 12:1,2; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52.

LxaxaSxaxar~


Note; Posted today, as usual FP posts are in the quote box

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From where did you take this quote?


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
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