The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum "Experimental Salvation" by A.W. Pink

This article by A.W. Pink is pretty darn good. Pink was obviously very intelligent as anyone would admit by reading any of his works.

Everything that he stated in the above quote is really really good. It's that battle that I have with Modern Evangelicals every week. The word "sin" has almost become Taboo in our Christian Culture.

But there's one thing that troubles me about this article and that's the way it closes. This is often the one thing that kind of troubles me about the Reformed Faith.

Pink leaves us with a focus that if we do indeed have the fear of God in us, if we are truly regenerated, if we are truly believers, then we should be able to put our sinful nature behind us.

This seems to be a prevalent attitude with many Reformed people.

But I have to argue that, the two Scripture versus that I provided show that even the true body will continue to fall short and do things that their new nature does not want to do.

In other words, there is a fine line here. Yes, we should be concerned about our salvation and whether we truly have a heart of repentance. But we should also realize that no matter how hard we try, we're still going to have that internal conflict until we die. Now I'm not saying that Jesus doesn't strengthen us and makes certain sinful battles that we struggle with easier over time. I will fully affirm that He does do this because that's exactly what has happened with me over the past 10 years. Certain things I used to really struggle with, I hardly have to think about anymore. But I still have the propensity to sin and I still fall short.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that one of the main problems with the Roman Catholic Church is their focus on their own righteousness. I've spent allot of time getting to know the Roman Catholic Church better and the one thing that is prevalent with their over all faith is their constant worry about being "good enough." to get in.

Sometimes I have to wonder if Reformed Protestants don't do the same thing only in a different way. Many of the Reformed preachers and teachers tend to leave us with the attitude of Perfectionism. The idea that we must always be looking at our works or our own righteousness to be sure that we are saved. But that's simply not the gospel. Once we put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ, we are perfect in God's eyes through the lens of the shed blood of His Son. Jesus forgives our sins past present and future. Does this give us license to sin? Absolutely not, if we truly are children of God we should have a heart to avoid temptation and repent for our wrong doing.... does that mean we can be perfect? Absolutely not... because as Paul says, I do the things I don't want to do and don't do the things that I want to do.... who will save me from this body of death.... Jesus will.

Dave

Dave,

I don't know that we will find "most" reformed teachers/preachers telling us to look at our own righteousness. I personally tell people to look to Christ. It is in Him we find our peace, strength and the willingness to do good. We approach things the wrong way when we look at our works to assure us. So often we approach the bible as a list of rules "how" to be righteous, but I believe the Word of God is much more. When we look into His precious word, we should see ourselves. We are encouraged because we have the marks of a true child of God. The word speaks of Christ and we are to be Christlike. I always tell people "don't try" to be good, allow God to make you good. How? by following the instruction in Rom. 12:1-2, renewing our minds and presenting our bodies living sacrifices. If you love the puritans, you will see they were faithful to point out our sin and then pointed to Christ as our hope. When we read the Epistles by Paul, we see he did the same thing. A combination of understanding our sin and then seeing Christ will lead to the changed life. We will then say the love of Christ constrains us instead of "trying" to be good enough. The true changes that last in the Christian are those He effects through His word, not those we do in our own strength in order to be good enough.

In Christ,
Hisalone

Dave,

can you please point out exactly why you say that Pink leaves us with this focus ... am I missing something?

Johan

I summarize it like this:

That over time, true believers become more and more like Christ. Though the struggle against sin continues as long as we occupy these corruptible bodies, and though battles are sometimes lost, old sinful habits die away and besetting sins lose their grip on us over time.

I really like this illustration when it comes to sanctification: It is not a duty, but a dance. Because it is a lifelong learning process and a skill that develops with practice. It is not a duty because it is the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit, not our own work.

A legalist is a dancer who is always watching his or her feet, to make sure they're getting every step exactly right. But that misses the whole point of dancing, which is to become more intimate with the One you're dancing with. Our eyes should be on His face, not on our own feet.

Or worse yet, on someone else' feet!

-R

That was awesome Robin. I liked your reply very much. Thank you.

Dave

Hmmmm, I'm contused! Can you help me out here? Are not the "marks of grace" that which are perceptible, i.e., they can be discerned by ourselves and in many cases by others? (Matt 7:16, 20) So, in one sense, aren't we called to examine ourselves to see if Christ (Holy Spirit) is truly in us by seeing some evidence of transformation? (Jam 2:24-26) To be sure assurance is obtained by several factors, e.g. our love for God and Christ evidenced in our desiring after righteousness, good works performed, the testimony of the indwelling Spirit that we are children of God, etc. So, isn't it legitimate for a professing believer to examine his/her life to see if there is spiritual fruit on the tree?

Secondly, this REALLY caught my attention: "I always tell people "don't try" to be good, allow God to make you good." I am going to assume, rightly or wrongly, that you are not simply redressing that old Antinomian byword which was so popular back in the '70s, "Let go and let God!". There are so many biblical passages which come to mind which contradict that type of Antinomianism:

Assurance and sanctification are inextricably joined together. For one who has the Holy Spirit dwelling within will exhibit, evidence that indwelling Spirit in visible, recognizable works. We are most assuredly saved by grace through faith ALONE, but not by a faith that is ALONE.

The more one matures in the faith, i.e., as one grows in grace being conformed to the image of Christ the more one will know one's sinfulness. And this knowledge of one's own sinfulness (not just someone who does sin occasionally) proportionately, that person will look to and rest in the Lord Christ Who is our "wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption:" (1Cor 1:30).

In His grace,

Did I not say, as we look into the Word of God we see that we truly are the children of God, what is so confusing about that? What is your standard that you go by to see if you are truly a child of God?


That is just plain being silly. Why do you say I am saying let go and let God? ai yi yi, do you not understand? How are we changed? Isn't it that our attitudes and desires are changed? For it is out of the heart that proceeds all evil. Can you change this in your own strength? If you can, then you are better than all. The things of the soul are changed by the word of God not by our wills. As the word of God impacts us, we do change, from the inside out. The verses you mentioned support what I said, that we look into the perfect law of God and we see that we "DO" keep His commandments. The fruit is the product of the light that is within us, not something we produce on our own. Must we look into the word of God to know what is right or wrong? Isn't the law written on our hearts? I stand by what I said. Maybe that is the problem with people, they are getting in the way of what God is trying to do, did you ever think of that? I don't know why people tend to make everything so difficult.

In Christ,
Hisalone

I hear from God from His word (chiefly), but I know I have heard from Him when I can clearly see the black, horrid darkness of my own sinful heart. It always compels me back to Christ first for mercy, and then for further sanctification.

Evidence, Hisalone, is what Pilgrim is talking about. Perceptible, enduring proof, visible to us and to others, that we belong to God. Not just in the things we say, but in all our deeds, our reactions to injustice, to trial, to hardship, triumph, abundance, poverty, suffering, and comfort.

Yes, the law is indeed written our our hearts, but our hearts and consciences are impure and conflicted. The only reliable and pure way even the very elect have to know God's law is through the infallible and eternal written word! How can we obey God if we don't know what He commands? Without His word, we rely upon whatever "inward" perceptions (tainted by our ever-present fallen nature and finite, fallible interpretation of it) we can conjure up, and upon our own inventions that we suppose will please God.

That is superstition, not obedience!

Methinks Robin answered you quite sufficiently and thus I will simply utter an "Amen!" to what he wrote. It is from the Word of God that I come to know what the fruit of the Spirit is. Then, I examine myself to see if indeed that "fruit" is evident in my life in thought, word and deed. This is the point the apostle James in the text I quoted. WORKS, my friend GOOD WORKS must be evident else one's professed faith is dead. It isn't enough to claim to have "good intentions", to "desire after God", etc., albeit in their true sense they are also to be resident within one's heart. But it is the FRUIT that is born out those inward inclinations which are that which indicate if we are regenerate or not. Put another way, where there is life there will always be signs of life. Now, what is so confusing about that? This is what Scripture teaches, which the Reformers and Puritans understood and taught and that which I too have come to know and likewise teach.

I never said you did! This is what I wrote:

I am going to assume, rightly or wrongly, that you are not simply redressing that old Antinomian byword which was so popular back in the '70s, "Let go and let God!".

And what is it that people thwart which God is trying to do? (as if that was even possible) What I think is that you are far too touchy, aka: thin skinned. And, perhaps you think far too highly of yourself and thus react far too quickly and often wrongly when you are challenged in your views... perhaps?

In His grace,

Touchy?? I'm trying to convey to you what is true, yet you argue against it. Reread what I wrote and think about it. I said we are confirmed by our reading God's word whether we are His or not. Do we love Him, do we hate sin, do we love the brethren, etc? If those things are true of you, did you do them through your strength or His?

As far as people making things too hard, it is the way of the Pharasee, we aren't made righteous by picking out of the Word the do's and don'ts and doing it, but by allowing the word to transform us. We don't sit back and let God, we stay in the word, pray without ceasing, we WALK with God. To do it any other way is to glorify yourself.

You say I think too highly of myself, I heard that from you before. You judge me when you don't even know anythign about me, but I have become accustomed to it. I ask you again, do you know my heart? It saddens me that you become personal when your stance is challenged. As before, those who read the posts can determine what is truth I'm not here to convince anyone. As for what Robin wrote originally, she said poetically what I "tried" to say plainly.

In Christ,
Hisalone

So, I'm arguing against truth? My "arguments" are in total agreement with the WCF, LC, SC, Belgic Confession and Heidelberg Catechism. Am I to believe that all of those who wrote those documents as well as those who embrace their teaching are in error and we don't know what the Scriptures teach, but YOU do? If you want to disagree, that's fine, but at least bring forth your exegesis of some passages in defense.

Well, aside from the fact that I provided a number of passages which included "WALK" as well as "DO", "OBEDIENCE", "WORKS", "KEEP" etc., am I to believe that your definition of WALK does not include DOING all that the Lord requires and/or ABSTAINING from all that the Lord forbids? How about 1Tim 2:5-8? Is there anywhere in what I've written here that even hints that I believe one can DO or NOT DO anything in order to please God out of their own strength? :rolleyes: And, btw, Robin responded to you because he disagrees with your view, as stated and not because he is in agreement with your view, as stated.

Please go back and carefully.... CAREFULLY read what I wrote in this regard. I think you will find that I used the word "perhaps" twice which therefore precludes any silly notion that I "accused" you of anything. It was a sincere suggestion of which it was hoped you might ponder.

In His grace,

ahem, Robin is a he.

And as far as your comments, it appears that you are not reading what Pilgrim has said and your comments are out of line. It is you who needs to reread what was said.

Your comments on Pink evoked a similar visceral response in that I also thought of that "Let go and let God" nonsense from way back when. Sorry if I misunderstood but that is what it sounded like.

Pilgrim provided you with several wonderful Scripture verses. There are many more which you would do well to meditate on including this from James 1:19–27
"Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God. Therefore put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing. If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless. Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world."

If we love God we are to obey Him. Putting to death the old man is something that we do out of a love for God as we come to see in increasing measure the sinfulness of sin and the holiness of God. A Christian comes to hate that which displeases and dishonors God. It requires action on our part to flee from sinful temptation as we ought or to do the things that God requires of us. Our obedience to the Word of God is to be an active one.

You are right to tell people to look to Christ. In Him we see perfect holiness and in His Word we are commanded to examine ourselves. We are to recognize our sinful ways, confess them and put them away from us. We are to imitate Christ in obedience to Him and out of our love for Him which only the a true believer can have.

First, an apology to Robin, my mistake which was made because I didn't look at his profile. As for my comments being out of line, I don't know how you can make that statement. Exactly what was out of line? I wrote plainly that we are changed by the Word of God. My point is that the change takes place on the will, affections and emotions by the renewing of our minds. The mortification and putting to death the deeds of the body are effected because mentally (renewing the mind) we were changed leading us to present our bodies a living sacrifice.

As for the "perhaps you think far too highly ... " we can disguise our words to appear innnocent enough, but the thought is there and a "perhaps" doesn't take the real intent of the words away. I have never questioned anyone's intent nor character, I don't know why anyone would on a discussion group. There isn't anything I said that is contradictory to scripture, I fail to see problem. Is it semantics? I'm saying the change is made from the inside out, we don't change the outside resolving to put to death the deeds of the flesh, but it is accomplished by the power of the word, learning and growing. I again, stand by what I said, maybe someone who reads these discussions will understand and benefit, there isn't anything heretical with what I said, I just don't think I'm being understood.

In His Love,
Hisalone

Isn't that what you just did? Read what you wrote.

Regarding being out of line? You made some statements early on that required some examination and when Pilgrim sought clarification, you became defensive and made some unfair accusations. I really would like to understand what you are trying to say for if you did indeed mean what you said in your first post, then there are some problems with it. If on the other hand I misunderstood you, this questioning should serve to bring out some clarification. Does that help?

Robin,

Is this "besetting sins lose their grip on us over time" really in line with the 5th head of the Canons of Dordt?

Johan