|
Posts: 15,136
Joined: April 2001
|
|
|
|
Forums31
Topics8,483
Posts56,707
Members995
| |
Most Online4,295
May 22nd, 2026
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Socialism
by Pilgrim - Mon Aug 17, 2026 2:55 PM
|
|
|
|
|
#42177
Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:38 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 379
Enthusiast
|
OP
Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 379 |
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3817/is_200606/ai_n17176282/ The explicit language of election unto salvation is always corporate in Paul (and the rest of the NT). While one might argue that the concept of election can be present and applied directly to individuals even when the explicit language is not, it still favors a corporate understanding of election that one will look in vain for an overt use of the language of election unto salvation in reference to an individual. Thus, the OT's and Judaism's corporate view of election, Paul's exclusive employment of corporate language in connection with election unto salvation, and the corporate orientation of Paul's socio-historical context all combine to provide a very strong case that Paul's view of election was corporate, and that he carried this view of election, which emanates from the Scriptures he interprets, into Romans 9. It will not do to argue that the individual entrance of Jews and Gentiles into the Church demands a concept of individual election,29 for as we have seen, the concept of corporate election embraces individual separation from and entrance into the elect community without shifting the locus of election to the individual. Hi Pilgrim & Friends, Related to the article I linked, could you either link to some threads on this issue or respond to this post: the agrument is made against 'Calvinists' who use Scriptures focus on corporate eletion and twist it to fit the Reformed theolgocial framework where individual election is at the forefront. Personally, I see individual election throughout scriptures but this author seems to suggest that indivdual election is in no way explicit. thanks! AC
Last edited by AC.; Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:51 PM.
The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Persnickety Presbyterian  |
Persnickety Presbyterian Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040 |
I'll try to look at this a litte further later on, but the first question to be asked is, how does God elect a group of people without defining who is & who is not in that group? A corporate body has individual members.
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 379
Enthusiast
|
|
OP
Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 379 |
I guess the author is making a case that the Jews were elect in the OT and that election was opened up to the Gentiles upon the death and ressurrection of Christ.
I think the main case the author makes is that whenever 'election' is used in the Bible it refers to Corporate election and to try to imply individual election is signified would be false.
This argument most probably opens the door to free-will faith/salvation.
The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 15,138 Likes: 317
Head Honcho
|
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 15,138 Likes: 317 |
AC. The word "election" like so many other words can have different meanings, for example, an election to service, to an office, to salvation, etc. CONTEXT is of critical importance in determining how a word is to be understood. Arminianism/semi-Pelagianism is infamous for denying God's sovereign grace in salvation and thus of "Unconditional Election" of individuals. This is "old stuff"!  For a good defense of "individual election" and a refutation of "corporate election" as regards salvation, see: A Defense of Individual Election unto Salvation, by Barry Hofstetter. Here are a couple more articles which you may benefit from: - Corporate and Individual Election, by Grover Gunn - Corporate Election, by Daniel Wallace - Corporate and Individual Election in Romans 9, by Thomas R. Schreiner ENJOY!
![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/pilgrim/pil_sig2.gif) simul iustus et peccator![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/Smileys/pencil.gif)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 379
Enthusiast
|
|
OP
Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 379 |
Funny thing Pilgrim is that the article you recommended by Schreiner is the one that is taken to task, look over the article I linked when you get the chance.
Don't get me wrong - Predestination/Perseverance of the saints does not fall with corporate election - but again, the case is being made that when Paul speaks of election it is in a coporate sense. I'm not saying this guy is right about Romans 9 stricly speaking of corporate election alone - I think God's soveriegnty is obviously on display and I would disagree that there is no reference to individual salvation at hand but this article that somebody linked to me did blindside me somewhat.
Last edited by AC.; Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:33 PM.
The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 15,138 Likes: 317
Head Honcho
|
|
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 15,138 Likes: 317 |
AC, That may be absolutely true.... and I apologize for not first reading your linked article. However, the other 3 articles I provided links for should prove to be of some help, particularly Barry Hofstetter's article. In His grace,
simul iustus et peccator
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 379
Enthusiast
|
|
OP
Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 379 |
ok, I'll check them out - thanks!!!
The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,896 Likes: 51
Needs to get a Life
|
|
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,896 Likes: 51 |
AC
I am not sure you meant to do this, but your answer to Kyle didn't disqualify what he said. Whether or not corporate election or individual election is meant, one can not escape the fact that individuals make up the corporate.
If you think I am wrong about that, please explain.
Also on that subject, read Romans 9:6-12 notice it is talking about individuals who make up children of the flesh (corporate) and children of God (corporate).
Also read John 8:33-39, I believe this ties right in nicely to my point.
Tom
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,896 Likes: 51
Needs to get a Life
|
|
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,896 Likes: 51 |
Funny thing Pilgrim is that the article you recommended by Schreiner is the one that is taken to task, look over the article I linked when you get the chance.
Don't get me wrong - Predestination/Perseverance of the saints does not fall with corporate election - but again, the case is being made that when Paul speaks of election it is in a coporate sense. I'm not saying this guy is right about Romans 9 stricly speaking of corporate election alone - I think God's soveriegnty is obviously on display and I would disagree that there is no reference to individual salvation at hand but this article that somebody linked to me did blindside me somewhat. I think you are mistaken about Schriener's article that Pilgrim recommended being the article Brian Abasiano took him to task for. If you look carefully at Schreiner's article again, you will see the following words: "A Response to Brian Abasciano" Tom
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 379
Enthusiast
|
|
OP
Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 379 |
Yes Tom, you are right!
My apologies Pilgrim!!!
The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 379
Enthusiast
|
|
OP
Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 379 |
Yeah, Schriener easily dismisses Abasciano's criticisms and effectively shows that corporate and indvidual election are inseperable.
The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Persnickety Presbyterian |
Persnickety Presbyterian Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040 |
I guess the author is making a case that the Jews were elect in the OT and that election was opened up to the Gentiles upon the death and ressurrection of Christ.
I think the main case the author makes is that whenever 'election' is used in the Bible it refers to Corporate election and to try to imply individual election is signified would be false.
This argument most probably opens the door to free-will faith/salvation. That's a bit silly. Rom. 9 clearly indicates that Jacob was individually elect; likewise, Esau was individually reprobate.
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
|
|
|
|
|
0 members (),
80
guests, and
19
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
|
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
|
30
|
31
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
