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#42401 Mon May 04, 2009 11:38 PM
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Tom Offline OP
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Recently, I was reading through a blog that had to do with Atheism vs. Christianity.
What I noticed (or think I noticed) is a conversation that went around and around, depending on one's subjective experiences.
Anyway, I made a contribution to that blog yesterday, but it has yet to get a reply back.

I was wondering in the mean time, what people here thought of my contribution on that blog.

Here is what I said:
Quote
The way I look at this topic is it is impossible to go into the topic without our own presuppositions.

What is more important however to me is the fact that if the God that the Scripture's proclaim is real, then He and He only can ultimately reveal Himself to His creatures.

While natural revelation can reveal things about God, only special revelation can ultimately reveal God Himself. I am reminded of John 6:37 where Jesus said: "All that the Father gives to Me shall come to Me, ...".

Jesus said this in the context of (verse 36) why people don't believe. If God gives someone to Jesus, regardless of whether or not they are atheists now, they will eventually come to Jesus for salvation.

As Christians we should not be surprised that people don't believe, for as the Bible says (1 Cor. 2:14) "But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."

It is our job to proclaim the Gospel in the manner He has prescribed in His Word. It is God's job to apply the Gospel to whom He sees fit.

It might be just my perception, but it seems to me that most conversations or debates on this topic, seem to leave God on the outside of the conversation. Rather than trust God that He is able to reach the lost, on His own terms, not ours.

Tom

Tom #42403 Tue May 05, 2009 6:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom
Recently, I was reading through a blog that had to do with Atheism vs. Christianity.
Here is what I said:
Quote
While natural revelation can reveal things about God, only special revelation can ultimately reveal God Himself. I am reminded of John 6:37 where Jesus said: "All that the Father gives to Me shall come to Me, ...".
I think I know what you were trying to say, but it didn't come out right, IMHO! grin Romans 1:18-25 says this:

Quote
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Notice the portions in RED. Not only does the natural revelation (aka: science) clearly reveal that there is a God, i.e., His eternal deity and Godhead, but even within themselves this testimony exists, because God Himself has revealed this knowledge to every human being. Thus there is absolutely no excuse for anyone to deny the existence of God.

The topic of God's existence should not be confused with the salvation which all men need and can only be recipients of should God have mercy upon them. The knowledge of the EXISTENCE of God is universal. But people spend their entire lives finding ways to deny God's existence and substituting fanciful ideas for this truth.

In His grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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Pilgrim #42408 Tue May 05, 2009 9:59 PM
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Tom Offline OP
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Pilgrim

Thank you, what you said is indeed what I was trying to say. My communication skills are not the greatest, though I think they have improved over the years. Which I think can be partly attributed to my participation on 'The Highway'.

Tom

Tom #42409 Tue May 05, 2009 11:39 PM
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Dear Tom,

This is not about your main point, but since you mentioned "communication skills", here is something that will strengthen your presentation of the truth.

You said that the comments on the site were largely subjective in nature--which I don't doubt, since many blogs, the product of incurably self-absorbed people, do tend in that direction--and you clearly wanted to present a more objective argument. But then your own opening sentences themselves begin subjectively as well!

The way I look at this topic is ...
and
What is more important however to me is ...

Let me urge you, brother, to avoid the compulsion to feel that you have to begin a declaration of undisputed truth by including a statement of how it makes you feel! Because at face value at least, that consigns your arguments, however well expressed, to the same level of subjectivity as all the others.

Your argument would have carried more weight had it begun without those qualifiers, like this:

Quote
It is impossible to go into the topic without our own presuppositions. If the God that the Scripture's proclaim is real, then He and He only can ultimately reveal Himself to His creatures.


The presuppositionalist will never describe any essential points of doctrine subjectively, knowing that the Scripture is always true, whether the hearer accepts it or not; proclaiming universal truth in subjective terms concedes any ability to apply it objectively to the unbeliever.

Arrgh! Now I see you did it again before your closing thought!

It might be just my perception, but it seems to me ...

Now granted that was not describing a universal truth, but Tom, you end up shooting your arguments in the foot when you feel you have to qualify so much of what you say in this way. Why not rather simply state the things you are certain of?


In Christ,
Paul S
Paul_S #42413 Wed May 06, 2009 8:55 PM
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Tom Offline OP
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Paul

Thank you for those comments; I will try to take them into consideration if and when I communicate in that manner again.
Funny thing is, had you not said something I wouldn't even have realized that I was giving that impression.

Thank you very much for saying something. BigThumbUp

Tom

Paul_S #42418 Sat May 09, 2009 11:17 AM
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You know Paul I'd like to take a class from you in presuppositional apologetics as I like Tom have that same nasty habit. Would you consider teaching an on line course?


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo

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