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#42696 Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:05 PM
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Jacy Offline OP
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Please help me out here - I would love to hear your thoughts concerning the matter of church attendance as it relates to being legalistic or not. I thought I would start a new thread since the other one on the importance of church attendance was so long. giggle

What constitutes being legalistic about church attendance? Where do you draw the line in deciding if an event is worth skipping church? How "regular" is regular and how "often" is often? What if one of your elder's attendance is hit or miss due to golf games, children's ice skating events, parties, etc.? How much lawful liberty do we have do we have in this area and when should others practicing such liberty be a concern to us?


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Jacy,

There is no specific "law" that says, "Thou shalt attend all church functions!" However, one would rightly assume that if one is regenerate, has come to Christ in repentance and with true saving faith, that person would be drawn to the Church, which is the body and bride of Christ.

Secondly, from this I would expect that any professing believer would yearn to worship God in the company and fellowship of other believers, aka: corporate worship. This would mean meeting together at the appointed times on the Lord's Day; both morning and evening services if they are available.

Thirdly, extra activities hosted by the Church, e.g., Bible Studies, Sunday School, prayer meetings and such; NOT barbecues, pot luck suppers, raffles, etc., some of which are to be shunned, would be determined by work and family schedules.

Fourthly, from what you wrote it would seem reasonable to presume that the church in question does not observe the Sabbath, i.e., the Lord's Day. Even if the church doesn't officially observe the Sabbath as part of the moral law of God (Fourth Commandment), it should at least set the day apart as that which was created for man to have the freedom to worship God, and delight in the things of God. (cf. Isa 58:13, 14) NOTE: Historically, some Baptists have not observed Sunday as the Sabbath (Fourth Commandment), but they have set the day apart as a day for worship, study and works of mercy and necessity. That is, their observance of the day was identical in practice to those who considered Sunday the NT Sabbath... cf. John Bunyan. The "official" statement of the Sabbath of the Reformed Baptists is found in The London Confession of Baptist Faith, Chapter XXII "Of Religious Worship and the Sabbath Day", articles VII and VIII.

Fifthly, it would seem this Elder has little regard for either observing the Sabbath Day as part of the moral law of God nor as a day created for man for the purpose of worshiping God and spending the day in delighting in Him, etc. If this man were an Elder in my church he would be set down and informed of his sinful behavior. Should he continue to neglect the Day by being involved in worldly recreation, etc., he would be put under discipline and possibly be removed from office if repentance was not forthcoming.

Lastly, since I hold to the "traditional" view as found in all the Confessions of the churches which came out of the Protestant Reformation to one degree or another, man has GREAT liberty in regard to the Sabbath Day. He is free to cease from all his regular labors and recreations and join with the people of God to offer up worship to Him in word, praise, prayer and song. We are free to do all manner of works of mercy to those in need; visit the sick, infirm, needy, poor, those incarcerated in prison/jail, feed the hungry, aid the elderly, etc. We are also free by God's mercy to do works of necessity, e.g., doctors, nurses, pharmacists (regulated if possible), etc. Some of us here have rejected work that has required we work on Sunday. And some have been fired for not working on Sunday. In short, we are free to worship God for the entire Day and express our love to our neighbors on that day. We are free to focus our entire beings; mind, soul and heart on our great God and our Redeemer Jesus Christ. We are free to spend time with our families to instruct them in the things of God. You see, there is incredible liberty in Christ in regard to what we are free to think and do on His Day... because the Sabbath was created for man. bigglasses

In His grace,



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Thank you for taking time to reply, Pilgrim.

First of all, you said:

Quote
Fourthly, from what you wrote it would seem reasonable to presume that the church in question does not observe the Sabbath, i.e., the Lord's Day.

You are correct in your presumption. The church in question does not believe Christians are held to Sabbath Laws. Following is a pretty accurate description of the church's (and my) beliefs (which I realize can be debatable):

Are the Sabbath laws binding on Christians today?

Colossians 2:16-17; 1 Chronicles 23:31; Nehemiah 9:14; Acts 20:7

We believe the Old Testament regulations governing Sabbath observances are ceremonial, not moral, aspects of the law. As such, they are no longer in force, but have passed away along with the sacrificial system, the Levitical priesthood, and all other aspects of Moses' law that prefigured Christ. Here are the reasons we hold this view.



1. In Colossians 2:16-17, Paul explicitly refers to the Sabbath as a shadow of Christ, which is no longer binding since the substance (Christ) has come. It is quite clear in those verses that the weekly Sabbath is in view. The phrase "a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day" refers to the annual, monthly, and weekly holy days of the Jewish calendar (cf. 1 Chronicles 23:31; 2 Chronicles 2:4; 31:3; Ezekiel 45:17; Hosea 2:11). If Paul were referring to special ceremonial dates of rest in that passage, why would he have used the word "Sabbath?" He had already mentioned the ceremonial dates when he spoke of festivals and new moons.

2. The Sabbath was the sign to Israel of the Mosaic Covenant (Exodus 31:16-17; Ezekiel 20:12; Nehemiah 9:14). Since we are now under the New Covenant (Hebrews 8), we are no longer required to observe the sign of the Mosaic Covenant.

3. The New Testament never commands Christians to observe the Sabbath.

4. In our only glimpse of an early church worship service in the New Testament, the church met on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7).

5. Nowhere in the Old Testament are the Gentile nations commanded to observe the Sabbath or condemned for failing to do so. That is certainly strange if Sabbath observance were meant to be an eternal moral principle.

6. There is no evidence in the Bible of anyone keeping the Sabbath before the time of Moses, nor are there any commands in the Bible to keep the Sabbath before the giving of the law at Mt. Sinai.

7. When the Apostles met at the Jerusalem council (Acts 15), they did not impose Sabbath keeping on the Gentile believers.

8. The apostle Paul warned the Gentiles about many different sins in his epistles, but breaking the Sabbath was never one of them.

9. In Galatians 4:10-11, Paul rebukes the Galatians for thinking God expected them to observe special days (including the Sabbath).

10. In Romans 14:5, Paul forbids those who observe the Sabbath (these were no doubt Jewish believers) to condemn those who do not (Gentile believers).

11. The early church fathers, from Ignatius to Augustine, taught that the Old Testament Sabbath had been abolished and that the first day of the week (Sunday) was the day when Christians should meet for worship (contrary to the claim of many seventh-day sabbatarians who claim that Sunday worship was not instituted until the fourth century).

12. Sunday has not replaced Saturday as the Sabbath. Rather the Lord's Day is a time when believers gather to commemorate His resurrection, which occurred on the first day of the week. Every day to the believer is one of Sabbath rest, since we have ceased from our spiritual labor and are resting in the salvation of the Lord (Hebrews 4:9-11).


So while we still follow the pattern of designating one day of the week a day for the Lord's people to gather in worship, we do not refer to this as "the Sabbath."

John Calvin took a similar position. He wrote,

There were three reasons for giving this [fourth] commandment: First, with the seventh day of rest the Lord wished to give to the people of Israel an image of spiritual rest, whereby believers must cease from their own works in order to let the Lord work in them. Secondly, he wished that there be an established day in which believers might assemble in order to hear his Law and worship him. Thirdly, he willed that one day of rest be granted to servants and to those who live under the power of others so that they might have a relaxation from their labor. The latter, however, is rather an inferred than a principal reason.

As to the first reason, there is no doubt that it ceased in Christ; because he is the truth by the presence of which all images vanish. He is the reality at whose advent all shadows are abandoned. Hence St. Paul (Col. 2:17) that the sabbath has been a shadow of a reality yet to be. And he declares elsewhere its truth when in the letter to the Romans, ch. 6:8, he teaches us that we are buried with Christ in order that by his death we may die to the corruption of our flesh. And this is not done in one day, but during all the course of our life, until altogether dead in our own selves, we may be filled with the life of God. Hence, superstitious observance of days must remain far from Christians.

The two last reasons, however, must not be numbered among the shadows of old. Rather, they are equally valid for all ages. Hence, though the sabbath is abrogated, it so happens among us that we still convene on certain days in order to hear the word of God, to break the [mystic] bread of the Supper, and to offer public prayers; and, moreover, in order that some relaxation from their toil be given to servants and workingmen. As our human weakness does not allow such assemblies to meet every day, the day observed by the Jews has been taken away (as a good device for eliminating superstition) and another day has been destined to this use. This was necessary for securing and maintaining order and peace in the Church.

As the truth therefore was given to the Jews under a figure, so to us on the contrary truth is shown without shadows in order, first of all, that we meditate all our life on a perpetual sabbath from our works so that the Lord may operate in us by his spirit; secondly, in order that we observe the legitimate order of the Church for listening to the word of God, for admin-istering the sacraments, and for public prayers; thirdly, in order that we do not oppress inhumanly with work those who are subject to us. [From Instruction in Faith, Calvin's own 1537 digest of the Institutes, sec. 8, "The Law of the Lord"].




Quote
Even if the church doesn't officially observe the Sabbath as part of the moral law of God (Fourth Commandment), it should at least set the day apart as that which was created for man to have the freedom to worship God, and delight in the things of God. (cf. Isa 58:13, 14)

The Lord's Day is set apart in the sense that resting, worshiping, and meditating on the things of God do take place. I personally don't think, though, that this precludes other lawful or enjoyable activities as well. You mentioned "worldly recreation"? Can you be specific in what you mean and perhaps give some examples?


I realize that there are quite possibly two different issues here - one being differing views on the Sabbath/Lord's Day, and the other being the issue of seeming lack of committment on the part of an elder or for regular church members for that matter. And perhaps they are both intertwined? I don't think so but I don't know.

My main question is this (but I'm also open to hearing what anyone wants to say regarding the other matter) - when would we say someone is sinning in the matter of church attendance? When they miss one Sunday (main worship services are only on Sunday mornings) due to a cause that's not "legitimate", ie, sickness, accident or otherwise being providentially hindered? When they miss 2 Sundays? When they miss regularly or routinely but still could not be said to be "forsaking" the assembling together? Doesn't "forsake" mean to totally leave?





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Originally Posted by Jacy
First of all, you said:

Quote
Fourthly, from what you wrote it would seem reasonable to presume that the church in question does not observe the Sabbath, i.e., the Lord's Day.

You are correct in your presumption. The church in question does not believe Christians are held to Sabbath Laws. Following is a pretty accurate description of the church's (and my) beliefs (which I realize can be debatable):
wow1 Far too much to deal with on a point-by-point basis; too little time and not enough space! grin

However, I will make the following points as rebuttal and then refer you to some excellent articles and a book that can be found on The Highway that are representative of what the Church throughout the ages has believed and practiced until recent times.

1) It is impossible to bifurcate the Fourth Commandment from the other Nine Commandments which all admit are moral without committing hermeneutical suicide. If the Fourth Commandment is only ceremonial then so are the other Nine. They were all given at the same time by God and written on tablets of stone to indicate their perpetuity.

2) Exodus 20 shows that the Sabbath was a creation ordinance. Deuteronomy 5 reveals further that the Sabbath is a redemptive ordinance given to the Church.

3) Colossians 2:16, 17 is clearly NOT dealing with the NT Sabbath which is based upon the Fourth Commandment but rather "sabbath days" or if you prefer the alternate reading "a sabbath day", i.e., the Jewish Sabbath, festivals and other ceremonies which were unique to Israel. Paul isn't warning against keeping the NT Sabbath, i.e., the Lord's Day (first day of the week) unto the Lord but rather the demand to keep all the festivals, new moons, etc., which the Judaisers taught were necessary additions to faith.

4) The Sabbath was part of the initial creation of God and was kept by those who desired after God (aka: remnant) long before this commandment was repeated at Sinai. The same applies to all of the Ten Commandments. They were written on men's hearts. For the most thorough biblical study on the Sabbath see: The Covenantal Sabbath

5) The Lord Jesus Christ kept the Sabbath faithfully as it was intended to be kept for it behoved Him to keep all the law perfectly. In fact, He was castigated for keeping the Sabbath perfectly because He didn't abide by all the extraneous "extras" that had been added by the Pharisees. For an excellent defense for the historic view that the Sabbath is binding upon NT believers (and all men for that matter), see the 3-part series by Jonathan Edwards found here: The Perpetuity and Change of the Sabbath. And see here: The Foundations of the Sabbath in the Word of God, by B.B. Warfield. And lastly see here: The Sabbath Question, by James MacGregor.

6) Romans 14:5 is irrelevant for the same reason as Col 2:16, 17. There is no mention whatsoever of the Fourth Commandment. If it is made to include the Fourth Commandment, then it contradicts what Paul wrote earlier in 7:12,14,22, 25. Paul is referring to the Ten Commandments in this entire section).

Okay... enough for now. grin

Originally Posted by Jacy
My main question is this (but I'm also open to hearing what anyone wants to say regarding the other matter) - when would we say someone is sinning in the matter of church attendance? When they miss one Sunday (main worship services are only on Sunday mornings) due to a cause that's not "legitimate", ie, sickness, accident or otherwise being providentially hindered? When they miss 2 Sundays? When they miss regularly or routinely but still could not be said to be "forsaking" the assembling together? Doesn't "forsake" mean to totally leave?
Simply put, when someone is consistently absent from worship, either regularly or irregularly for reasons not due to God's providence, then Church should be responsible and make contact with such an individual, in person if possible for counsel. Unless the church wants to play the Bob Jones routine and make a list of all the "do's and don'ts" which are deemed "sinful", the church really doesn't have much to stand on in order to discipline someone for not attending their meetings.

When you throw out the Sabbath, you aren't left with much to discipline someone for if they don't attend worship. What if they say, "I had baseball playoffs on Sunday"? or "I have a philosophy final on Monday and I had to study for it.", or "Some friends I haven't seen in 3 years dropped by to visit." etc., etc., ad nauseam.

A desire to worship God in the assembly of the saints is a mark of regeneration. Those who have no desire to meet with God have to question their spiritual state. It's not a good sign. [Linked Image]

And as a "cherry on top", see what you think of this sermon: The Fourth Commandment, by Rev. G. Van Reenen.

I hope you will observe and enjoy the Lord's Day tomorrow and that God will richly bless you as you worship Him in "spirit and truth". grin

In His grace,


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Pilgrim

Just thought I would ask for some clarification here.

When you said:
Quote
Thirdly, extra activities hosted by the Church, e.g., Bible Studies, Sunday School, prayer meetings and such; NOT barbecues, pot luck suppers, raffles, etc., some of which are to be shunned, would be determined by work and family schedules.

Are you saying that Christians should not get together for things like barbeques and pot luck suppers?

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Of course not, Tom. Some should be "shunned" if they occur on the Lord's Day, taking attention from worship to a social occasion, and raffles amount to gambling and should be shunned if for no other reason than to avoid the appearance of evil and to avoid offending the brethren.

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Wow, guess the qualifier "some of which" was overlooked in your question Tom. And discretion with reagard to what is God honoring activities (Isaiah 58 in mind) overlooked.

Of course, if your church has some crummy cooks who generally serve up some lousy dishes, then it might be wise to avoid those pot luck dinners or barbeques where they might serve some life endangering meals.


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Liberty vs. legalism?

I would consider 2 things - the desire of the convert to be obedient/reverent towards their savior and the desire to flea anything that resembles sin & vanity - whatcha think?


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Jacy,


Pilgrim summed up well what it is to observe the Lord's day in his first, second, and last points (post #42697). I suggest that we be careful as their are some who like to ridicule those who observe the Lord's day accusing them of a legalistic pursuit of sanctification. They do this by appealing to Christian liberty and quoting from or comparing themselves with Christians of both past and present. One with a true saving faith or a Spirit led seeker knows the depravity of their desperately wicked heart and seeks life eternal all the days of their life, following hard after Jesus Christ and rests not a carnal presumption that all is well with their soul and thus skips church for the allurements of the world. We should also restrain our liberty in things that at other times are lawful between and after church services and give time to think, meditate, and learn of things above.

Originally Posted by Jacy
The Lord's Day is set apart in the sense that resting, worshiping, and meditating on the things of God do take place. I personally don't think, though, that this precludes other lawful or enjoyable activities as well. You mentioned "worldly recreation"? Can you be specific in what you mean and perhaps give some examples?


Quote
The Second Helvetic Confession - Chapter XXIV

. . . the Lord's Day itself, ever since the apostles' time, was set aside for them and for a holy rest, a practice now rightly preserved by our Churches for the sake of worship and love.

. . . For we do not believe that one day is any holier than another, or think that rest in itself is acceptable to God. Moreover, we celebrate the Lord's Day and not the Sabbath as a free observance.


William,








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Thank you, Pilgrim, for you input and for giving the me links to read. I'm sure I will probably have further questions after I've had time to read all you've given me.

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Originally Posted by AC.
Liberty vs. legalism?

I would consider 2 things - the desire of the convert to be obedient/reverent towards their savior and the desire to flea anything that resembles sin & vanity - whatcha think?

Thank you, AC. As I said in my reply to you in another thread, Christians should know and discern who we're being obedient to - God or man; to know what is truly sin and what is said to be sin. That desire is what prompts many of my questions.

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Thank you for your thoughts, William.

Quote
I suggest that we be careful as their are some who like to ridicule those who observe the Lord's day accusing them of a legalistic pursuit of sanctification.

To ridicule someone for a matter of their own conscience would be a terrible thing. If they are convinced in their own hearts, then it's a matter of them following their conscience in a manner of obedience.

Quote
We should also restrain our liberty in things that at other times are lawful between and after church services and give time to think, meditate, and learn of things above.

Do you (or any of y'all) think this matter of Sabbath keeping would be similar to the issue Paul spoke about in Romans regarding those whose consciences forbade them from eating meat that had been offered to idols? Is this a matter on which one should be allowed his conscience on or do you see it more as a right/wrong sin/obedience issue that the erring one needs to be informed and educated about and held to that standard?

Thank you all for your thoughts and input. heart

*Edited to say that when speaking of "Sabbath/Lord's Day keeping" I am NOT referring to missing corporate worship. I am speaking more of activities between or after worship, as stated in your quote above. To me, failure to assemble in corporate worship on the Lord's day is a no brainer whether you are a Sabbatarian or not.

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Originally Posted by Jacy
Originally Posted by AC.
Liberty vs. legalism?

I would consider 2 things - the desire of the convert to be obedient/reverent towards their savior and the desire to flea anything that resembles sin & vanity - whatcha think?

Thank you, AC. As I said in my reply to you in another thread, Christians should know and discern who we're being obedient to - God or man; to know what is truly sin and what is said to be sin. That desire is what prompts many of my questions.


I can't argue with what you're saying Jacy. I think if Jesus is first & foremost in our thoughts and hearts and we look to him for guidance we can't go wrong! This may seem a bit of an impossibility but I reckon it's tied to our growth in grace as part of sanctification (a great desire for the things of the Lord).

I think the Lord's Day is a bit of a different matter becasue of the command to keep it 'holy' Not that the convert is looking to engage in activities that would be detirmental to the soul throughout the week but it seems as if a keeping 'holy' of the sabbath day implies something a little bit more, in terms of worship and devotion. While the convert naturally is compelled in this manner throughout the week (the work and daily responsibilies usually get in the way).

Peace Jacy!

Last edited by AC.; Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:11 PM.

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Originally Posted by AC.
I think if Jesus is first & foremost in our thoughts and hearts and we look to him for guidance we can't go wrong! This may seem a bit of an impossibility but I reckon it's tied to our growth in grace as part of sanctification (a great desire for the things of the Lord).
AC,

1. Could you please explain what you mean by: "... and we look to him [Jesus] for guidance..."?

2. And how does 2Tim 3:16, 17 fit in? (cf. WCF Chapter 1, Article VI; Ps 119:9-11)

In His grace,


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2 Timothy 3:16-17 (King James Version)

16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.


Oh, yes - I don't mean to imply that there's any kind of seperation. I was just indicating that if our conscience is troubled we can take our concerns to the Lord through prayer in which we ask for guidance. But of course scripture should constantly be our guide. But I don't want to mislead, I defer to you for proper clarification or correction regarding Jacy's concerns and my responses.

thanks!

AC



The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine

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