The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Predestination and 'foreseen faith'

How would you respond to someone who said they believed that God predestinated to salvation those whom He saw would believe by looking down the 'corridors of time'?

that would be a faith based on works. It would ultimately leave salvation as our choice, not Gods. If is our choice then it is concievable that Jesus could have died on the cross and nobody would have made the choice to beleive, therefore his death would have been for nothing.

The passage usually quoted here is Romans8:28,29 which Gods predestination based on foreknowledge is not taught. The passage states that those whom God calls he justifies. Many peopel hear the gospel, but only the ones that God called are justified.

If all are called, but only those who choose are justified that would make the whole passage of Romans 8:28,29 obsolete because not all who are called in the foreseen faith view become justified.

Mr. Don
I agree with you. If I am not mistaken Open Theism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_theism), was basically created by people who like Calvinists had a big problem with the Arminian understanding. Yet much like Arminians they believe the Calvinist understanding makes God a tirrant.

Tom

Sometimes I answer a question like that with a question of my own:

If Almighty God foreknows that something terrible - something He doesn't want - is going to happen, is there any chance that it won't happen?

If anything ever can and does happen that He has not decreed, then He is not Almighty, and not all-knowing. One of the reasons I am so attracted to "Calvinism" is because of its exaltation of God as God!

-Robin

WCF Chap III, sec. 2 states, "2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, yet hath He not decreed any thing because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions."

Would not the faith of a believer be one of those things that God foresaw but did not decree?

Is the Confession only saying that:
1. God's decree is not based upon a "foreseen future"?

Or is it actually teaching much more:
2. God does not "foresee a future" whatsoever?

And, this really begs the question:

3. What is the origin of God's foreknowledge?

I would have to respond that the origin of God's foreknowledge is that he is the creator or all things, including all events past and future, and as creator he has the foreknowledge of the future. But the concept of a future at all only makes sense to man. God is outside of time, so he is not constrained by time or even has a past or a future, so to speak. "Before Abraham was, I am." (Jn. 8:58) Every point in time is equidistant from God, so in that sense, no, God does not "foresee" the future. He simply is. Nonetheless, he knows "whatsoever may or can come to pass" (from a human perspective) because he created "whatsoever".

Ouch! Such a discussion is really demanding a lot from my 55-year-old brain this early on a Saturday morning, particularly before my second cup of coffee.

I think you are hitting on the heart of the matter in regard to the chasmic difference between the two systems:

1. Calvinism: God's foreknowledge, in the sense of it being prescience (knowledge of facts, events, etc.) is the RESULT of His eternal foreordination, predestination, election, etc., aka: decree(s).

2. Arminianism: God's foreknowledge DETERMINES God's foreordination, predestination, election, etc.

The problem with the Arminian view should be immediately apparent. God does not possess Omniscience since He is dependent upon the actions of the creation from which He "learns" what is going to happen. The impact goes even further and actually denies all three of the "Omni" attributes; Omnipotence, Omnipresence and Omniscience.

I would ask who created the "corridors of time" such that God might look down them.