The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum One Arminian on Predestination

Hi

Recently I was having an e-mail conversation with an Arminian about predestination.
Part of one of his e-mails confused me, because I have only come across this particular view of predestination once before. Only that particular time, I wasn't interested in understanding where that person was coming from.



I have read a few Arminian commentaries on passages such as Ephesians chapter one, particularly verse 4, which I assume he is referring to when he says "PLAN already before the foundations of the World for the saved...”
Those commentaries didn't have that particular slant to their interpretation.

Is this a common understanding of predestination among Arminians?

Although I have decided that it is a fruitless endeavor to continue to discuss this matter with him. Mainly because of his obvious hate of all things related to Calvinism (i.e. calling Edwards and Spurgeon heretics). I am curious, of your opinions on how best to show someone with that understanding that they haven't properly exegeted the passage.

Tom

This should be fairly easy to answer...

I know what I would say, but I want to hear what you would say first

Ok, I will give a short answer based on Eph. 1:4. At the moment I don’t have time for more than a short answer.

Eph. 1:4 says "Accordingly as he hath chosen us in him before the foundations of the world, that we should be holy and with out blame before him in love." KJV


The words "Accordingly as he hath chosen us in him before the foundations of the world," indicate people God has chosen in Christ, before the foundation of the world."

The words "that we should be holy and with out blame before him in love." Indicate that the people whom God has chosen should be holy and with out blame before him in love.
This indicates the salvation of the chosen.
It should be fairly clear from this verse and many others, that it is people whom God chooses, not their actions.
The second part of the verse starts with the word "that".
The word "that" indicates something following salvation; which is their sanctification. This is a life long process.

Tom

That is how I would answer too!

I also found the second part of his answer disturbing (which is more a theodicy issue than one about Eph. 1). Does he believe that God foreordained the cross? Most Arminians (pretty much other than open theists) would say that God ordained that Christ would die on the cross. Then they say that I, as a Calvinist, do not give enough credit to the fall when I say that God ordains the details as well as the big picture. But that is a straw man because no true Calvinist believes that God is the author of evil or that second causes are done away with!

God foreordained the greatest act of evil done by man. And yet man is held responsible because it was in his heart to do it.

I agree with Marie in that we as Calvinists do not believe that God is the author of sin.But, Arminians in general accuse us of that very thing. When the person you are conversing with included the sentence about "rape" he was, in my opinion, saying that you believe that God is the author of sin.
If this person will listen to your view I would start with Rom.5:12,15,18,19 and try to make him see that we believe in a Federal view of the fall of man where Adam perfectly represented us all.
God did ordain the fall in the sense that he chose to allow it,but not in the sense that he chose to coerce it.God's decree of predestination was made before the fall and in light of the fall.

The above quote is actually addressing the doctrine of eternal security, or to be more biblical the perseverance of the saints as a result of denying predestination and unconditional election. Here are some scriptural proofs that expose his view as spurious.

Perseverance/Preservation of the Saints

Consider also:
1) God's election guarantees the salvation of those predestined to eternal life. (cf. Jh 6:37-39; Rom 8:29-39)
2) Christ's substitutionary atonement and intercession for the saints guarantees their salvation. (cf. Jh 11:42; Heb 25)
3) Believers already possess salvation and eternal life. (cf. Jh 3:36; 5:24; 6:54)

Secondly, one cannot escape the clear teaching that God elects/predestines individuals to salvation versus God implementing a plan whereby sinners can be saved if they do x, y, z or a combination of things required of them.


Many, many more scriptural proofs and reasons could be offered, but these should suffice to show that God elects and predestines individuals unto salvation. That salvation includes ALL that is necessary to bring about God's "plan" to save individuals from beginning to end; calling, regeneration, conversion, sanctification, perseverance/preservation and final glorification. "Salvation is of the LORD (triune God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit). How else could those who are dead in sin be saved?

Pilgrim

Great post, lots of meat to chew on.

Tom

Hi,

PRAISE THE LORD.

I greet you all in the name of our LORD and SAVIOR LORD JESUS CHRIST.
I came across this site when searching for predestination on the internet.
I have read about John Calvin's statement on predestination. Later I kept on searching for more.
I have found R.C Sproul's view on this topic of double predestination. Also about reformed predestination.

I believe in these things:

GOD is not the author of evil things which come from man's heart.
HE doesn't intend us to do evil.
He is all powerful and sovereign an all things.

According to the scripture, HE has elected us before the foundation of the world.
According five-point calvinism, GOD did not choose some for the Salvation.
According to reformed view, HE doesn't interfere with those unelected people and force them to sin.
So, if those people were created evil, then why did GOD create them in HIS image.

Also if there is no free will, why would GOD be grieved of the sin of the mankind.
Also in many places in Old testament we see GOD'S ire against those people who have rebelled against
HIM. Do you think GOD intentionally allow all this?

If GOD is love then, how can he create humans with evil hearts. Also according to the bible
evil as we see, originated after the fall of lucifer. So GOD'S very being as LOVE
is in contradiction with this explanation of predestination.

So how can predestination be explained ?

We are glad you found us.

And what statement of Calvin did you read? and where? In case you didn't know, the biblical doctrine of predestination wasn't invented by John Calvin. There were many before him that held to the same view that he did. Calvin even admits that Augustine was instrumental in helping him see this doctrine in Scripture.

Wonderful!! I would agree with all of the above, at least at face value. Of course, what YOU mean by these things may be something different?

Again, the first three statements are true according to Reformed theology and the Bible.

1) God did from eternity elect some to salvation in Christ. (Deut 7:6,7; Jh 10:16; Acts 13:48; Rom 8:29,30; 9:11-24; 11:5,6; Eph 1:4; 2Thess 2:13,14; Titus 1:1,2; 1Pet 1:1,2. See also: God's Indisputable Sovereignty)

2) God does not force anyone to sin. All men from conception are sinful by nature and thus they sin most naturally and willingly.

3) Men are not "created evil" in the sense that they would otherwise be good in and of themselves. All men are created as fallen in Adam and thus they a) imputed with guilt and b) inherit a corruption of nature. (Ps 51:5; Jh 5:21; Rom 5:12-18; 1Cor 15:21,22; Eph 2:1-5; Col 2:13) All men were "on trial" in Adam, who God appointed the federal head of the entire human race. Whatever Adam did affected all who would come after and by him.

1) Are you implying that man has a "free will"?
2) Whether or not man has a free will has no bearing upon God's hatred of sin and His grieving that men commit sin against Him, i.e., they transgress His most holy law, even His very person.

I think you have already answered this question by your affirmation, "He is all powerful and sovereign an all things." (Isa 44:7; 45:21; 46:9,10; Jer 32:19; Ps 33:11; 135:6; Dan 4:35; Rom 11:33-36; Eph 1:9-11)

1) Evil, i.e., sin originated with Satan and all the angels which participated in the rebellion against God. Did this happen against God's will; His decree/foreordination?

2) God's very being is many things, which includes love. Love is not God's only or supreme attribute. God is also holy, jealous, perfect, transcendent, sovereign, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, etc.

3) God's love is the very ground upon which any are predestinated to eternal life in Christ Jesus. There could be no predestination if it wasn't true that God is love. But His love didn't demand or require that He save anyone. It was God's sovereign choice to do so. (Eph 1:4)

Could you explain why you think God's love is in contradiction with the Reformed view of predestination?

In His grace,

Thank you Pilgrim for your insight.

Now there are two ways in which man views good and bad. A man with the love of GOD views it different from that of an unbeliever. So those who are saved, feel concerned for everybody's salvation. This is the true nature of GOD. Because HE is love, he wants all men to be saved.

(For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3-4)

So we cannot deny HIS sovereignty in salvation and also HE desires all men to be saved.
This is true love of GOD. So one thing is sure that HE doesn't prompt us to do evil.

If both are true, then we are in a situation where we cannot for sure explain how election and
GOD'S desire to save all mankind go together.

Also remember that one thing that remains forever is the perfect love of GOD.

(And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. 1 Corinthians 13:13).

So,because GOD loves his creation, there should be freedom in our thoughts and actions.

Now the ultimate question is how free will exists? Remember that we may not know how GOD accomplishes these things. Such knowledge is a mystery and probably out of our understanding.
Our conception of time and space is different from that of GOD. So I think that all mankind
is given a fair chance of salvation. According to the scripture this is true. It is also
true that only some will be saved in the end.
But how these events go together is a mystery which we cannot know. It is better left to
GOD himself. That is the reason I think, GOD did not reveal these things to us.

1. I don't see the relevance of how man views good and bad in regard to the topic of predestination?

2. You state how you think a saved man views "good and bad" but you made no mention of how you think an unsaved man views "good and bad"?

3. You have made an illogical jump from how a saved man views good and bad to feeling concerned for everybody's salvation. I don't see the connection?

4. Another totally illogical jump to go from a saved man is concerned for everybody's salvation to "this is the true nature of God." We can't deduce what God's nature is like from a fallen creature's emotive response to someone else, regardless if that person is saved or not. God's nature is only known from divine revelation, aka: the Bible.

1. IF the 1Tim 2:3,4 actually teaches that God "desires" the salvation of all men, i.e., God "wills" that all men be saved, then de facto all men will infallibly be saved. For whatever God has determined to be will be since He is the sovereign Creator and Sustainer of all things Who governs His creation completely for His glory. Did you not read any of the Scripture passages I provided for you in my first reply that speak to this very issue? (Isa 44:7; 45:21; 46:9,10; Jer 32:19; Ps 33:11; 135:6; Dan 4:35; Rom 11:33-36; Eph 1:9-11)

2. It is more than important that we take biblical passages IN CONTEXT to rightly come to understand the truth they teach. In this particular case, re: 1Tim 2:3,4 this is especially true. Thus...

1 Timothy 2:1-4 (ASV) "I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, be made for all men; for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth."

It can now be clearly seen that the "all men" that appears in verse 4 is the same "all men" that appears beforehand in verse 1. The "all men" refers to "kings and all that are in a high place", i.e., those who rule over others. Understandably, since in Paul's day and throughout history those in power have misused their power to oppress those under their rule, the natural tendency is to not pray for such evil individuals. But here Paul makes clear that even these types of people can be saved and so it is good to pray for them too... thus there is no TYPE or CLASS of individual which God hasn't desired to save. For a fuller exegetical treatment of this passage, see here: An Exegetical Study of 1Timothy 2:4.

Sorry, but I must admit that I do not understand how or where this statement fits in??

There is no such alleged paradox. For, God does not love all men and God has not decreed (willed/desired) all men to be saved. Romans 9 has much to say about God's love, election, purpose in creating some to honor (salvation) and some to dishonor (damnation) as well as answering such objections to God's indisputable sovereignty, including salvation.

Ooops! Once again, it is important to take a passage in context. 1Cor 13 is addressing OUR love, true love for others. Thus "love" appears in the triad, "faith, hope and love"... God doesn't have faith nor hope.

Hmmmmm, this is another illogical leap. What is the correlation between God loving His creation and the necessity of there being freedom in a man's thoughts and actions?

1. The ultimate answer is: "Free will doesn't exist", thus all else that rests upon this presupposition is mute and not worth thinking about.

2. What is most incomprehensible is the relationship between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. Scripture most definitely teaches both. Thus, they are embraced by faith rather than diminishing God's sovereignty by allocating some of His sovereignty to man and man's limited knowledge and power to God.

3. Could you please show from Scripture where this "all mankind is given a fair chance of salvation" idea is found? And could you please define/explain what this "fair chance of salvation" is?

4. Lastly, from this it would appear that man determines his own salvation by exercising his "free will" and God simply complies with man's decision... would this be an accurate summary of your view?

In His grace,

Hello Pilgrim. Thank you for your response.

I am sorry. I could not properly construct my argument in my previous reply.

Do you think that only some men will be saved whom GOD has elected.

If there is no free will, then what made eve to eat the forbidden fruit ? Is it that GOD wanted it to be so ?

Now GOD is sovereign. I agree. He controls each and every event in this universe.

Now if a man is not under election, is it because GOD knows that man will reject HIM in the future. If he rejects, then it is due to his unbelief. Now the questions here is who caused his unbelief. Is it because of his will to reject or it is caused by GOD?

Just thought I would jump in here

ygk,


Actually, all that God has elected to be will be saved. None will fall short. Several verses emphasize this fact: here are a few:
Romans 5:9 "Much more than, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him." (Context: the elect).
Romans 8:29-30. "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn amoung many brethren.
Moreoever whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."
John 17:9 "I pray for them (context: Jesus praying for his disciples). I do not pray for the world, but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours."

Read the whole book of Romans. There are so many verses that support predestination of the elect...I couldn't possibly quote all of them



To take your scenario, in other words, you are saying that this certain man is not one of the elect because, before the world began, God saw ( because he knows everything) that this certain man would reject Him. Therefore God does not elect him. Is that what you meant?


How can this be? IF the above scenario is true, that makes God the servant of man's will. (and therefore not sovereign) i.e. God looks down 'the corridors of time' and sees if this man will reject him...once He sees that, then He doesn't elect him. You see how man is in control here?

This is conditional damnation (opposite of election)based upon what man will do.
No. God is in control (sovereign.) He chooses some (his elect) based on his own pleasure, not anything in man, (i.e. no free will) and damns the rest to hell. That is what man deserved anyway.

Romans 9: 14-15
"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Cetainly not!
For He says to Moses, ' I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion. ' "


--RoadOfLife
just my

ygk,

1. It would be far more helpful if you would respond to those things which I have written in reply to your contentions rather than simply going on with more questions.

2. Yes, I agree with Scripture that all those and only those whom God has set His eternal electing love upon and predestinated in Christ will be saved. How else could anyone be saved, since all men by nature hate God, none seek Him, and none can come to Christ due to their being "darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardening of their heart;". (cf. Mk 13:20; Jh 10:26-29; Acts 13:48; Eph 1:4; 2:1-10; 4:17-19; Rom 3:10-12; 8:29,30; 2Tim 2:10)

The answer is both; Eve ate the fruit by her own choice AND God had ordained the Fall. It is not an either/or situation. God is not culpable for Adam & Eve's sin but when they did it wasn't any surprise to God for He had foreordained it. As you yourself have stated "He controls each and every event in this universe." (Is 43:13; 46:9,10; Dan 4:35; Psa 33:11; 135:6; Prov 19:21; 21:30; Acts 2:23; 3:18; 4:27,28; Eph 1:9-11)

Secondly, you are ignoring the vast difference between the nature of man in his prelapsarian state (before the Fall) and the nature of man in his postlapsarian state (after the Fall), in other words, you are discounting the noetic affects of the Fall. When Adam sin ALL died because all sinned (Rom 5:12; 1Cor 15:21; Eph 2:1-5). This death being physical, spiritual and eternal was God's just punishment upon the human race. Man's spiritual death, aka: Original Sin consisted of an a) imputed guilt and b) inherited corruption of nature. Thus, man was rendered incapable of loving God and obeying Him. His mind was darkened, his heart filled with hatred of God and all that is righteous and his will subject to his sinful understanding and desires. This is clearly illustrated in Christ's words, "No man CAN come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day." (Jh 6:44)

1. No, God elects some out of the fallen race of Adam due only to His love and good pleasure to show them mercy in Jesus Christ. (Matt 11:25-27; Jh 17:9,11,24; Rom 9:9ff; Eph 1:4-13; 2:4-10; 2Pet 1:3,4; 1Jh 4:10) IF God's election was based upon what He "knew" man might do, then salvation is not of grace but of works; e.g., the will of man.

2. God did indeed elect some and not elect others according to the good pleasure of His eternal perfect will for His own glory. AND, man naturally and most willingly rejects God and His Christ due to his hatred of God. Thus man's unbelief is his own doing. Remember, man is under the wrath and judgment of God from his conception because he is at enmity with God due to his native depravity and the guilt of Adam imputed to Him. God causes no one's unbelief. Man is born an unbeliever. (Jh 3:18,19; Eph 2:3; Rom 3:9; Gal 3:10)

3. This notion that God knows what man will do in the future is a logical fallacy, i.e., it is utterly impossible that God can "look into the future" if He hasn't first ordained all things and then created that which He has ordained. What possible "future" could exist outside of Himself? Secondly, IF God has to look into the future in order to "know" what will be, then this not only denies His inscrutable sovereignty but also His Omniscience. For, this whole idea asserts that God was lacking in the knowledge of all things UNTIL He observed what man would do. Much more could be said to refute this notion which is nowhere to be found in Scripture.

In His grace,

I dare say that only Christians have free will! What makes me say that?

Abundant references in Scripture to our natural state of slavery and bondage to sin prior to experiencing the new birth makes me say that. Until one is regenerated by a sovereign act of God upon him or her, he or she cannot even see the kingdom of God (John 3:3), much less comprehend it nor even be aware of it, much less respond to it (2nd Corinthians 2:14).

Since we cannot respond to that which we cannot sense nor understand, anything we do with true faith towards God must be "born" in us from God. The new birth is from Above, not from within (1st John 3:9, 4:7).

-Robin