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rachel #46860 Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:41 AM
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Dear Rachel:

The Bible says God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind. The answer to your fear is not a false doctrine to confort yourself with, but truth mixed with FAITH. The idea that you now can't "unchoose" God is so obviously false that you know it within yourself. That is the root of your fear--you know you have a will and you know you can choose other that what you do.

This is why we are taught to submit to God and resist the devil. What is this submitting if you can't choose? James told Christians to submit to God. Obviously, they could do otherwise. So can you.

The beauty of this and what glorifies the Lord is when believers prefer Him to the Devil or temptation. When the demons see people, surrounded by temptation, prefer and cling to the Lord instead, this brings God great glory! God surely is preferrable to this world and is glorified when men like Moses choose God over Pharoah and his enticements.

Free-will is a Bible term and concept. Whosever will is invited to come to Christ by the Holy Spirit. You are commanded to abide in Christ, and He will abide in you. His yoke is EASY, and His burden LIGHT. Do you believe this? You can abide in Christ because you were created to walk with your God. It is natural.

AC. #46861 Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:47 AM
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Elizabeth Eliot revealed that the tribeman that murdered her husband and the others admitted that deep down, they knew what they did was wrong, and they further told that they knew stealing was wrong, and that what they did to each other during tribal wars was wrong. Now these people were about as backward, degenerate and God-forsaken as one could imagine, and yet THEY KNEW inside all about right and wrong! Suicide bombers sin against their own conscience and the light within them that they have. They are without excuse.

All this person had to do is what many have done who were in false religion but honestly wanted truth--cry out to God, and SOMEHOW, God gets truth to them as only He can. He does it all the time all over the world. We don't know the half ot it, but will one glorious day!

AC. #46862 Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:05 AM
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Free-will is a fiction fabricated by sinful men whose sole desire is to become autonomous

Look at the self-contradictory absurdity of such ideas! Sinful men WILL to be free! And how is this possible if they don't have a will that is free? banghead

Such questions cannot be answered LOGICALLY by any Calvinst.

What is worse is that FREEWILL is a Bible term. To call it a fiction is to attack the author of holy wirit, which is something quite Calvinistic. Attacking His glorious character and love is standard fare for the Calvinist apologist while thinking he makes God look great by making Him a cruel tyrant and control-freak dictator. Calvinism has driven more men away from the Lord than any other false doctrine, and rightly so. Even sinful men can see the repugnance of such ideas being ascribed to One who is good and love first and foremost. Men know they are sinners, and they know God is good and they ought to obey Him. They also know it is not God who makes them sinful and stay in sin, but their own choice. They know what they ought to do, and would never ascribe to God the blame that Calvinists do. This is the light of General Revelation that Paul taught in Romans One and Two that Gentiles have.

Hear the Word of the Lord in Levitticus One:

1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, [even] of the herd, and of the flock.

3 If his offering [be] a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.


Not only does man have a will weith which he can approach the Lord, God states man has HIS OWN voluntary will. Man has HIS OWN will, and it is VOLUNTARY. It is under NO COMPULSION, despite what Calvinists claim! God says otherwise! Here we have unregenerate Jews, dead in trespasses and sin, able to come to God for reconciliation, and God states that they must come OF THEIR OWN VOLUNTARY WILL!

This proves they have one, and that IT IS IMPORTANT TO GOD that they come to Him freely. God clearly despises the whole idea of compulsion! In 2Cor 8 we are told:

6 But this [I say], He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.


Notice again the idea of compulsion is condemned, and God HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. He wanted people to freely give, and we are further told that God LOVES a cheerful giver! Hmmmmmmmmn??? The concept of freewill is clearly taught in the Bible and the concept of "sovereignty" is not only not taught, but condemned by God. Praise the Lord!




Last edited by freewill; Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:10 AM.
freewill #46863 Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by freewill
This is why we are taught to submit to God and resist the devil. What is this submitting if you can't choose? James told Christians to submit to God. Obviously, they could do otherwise. So can you.
Welcome to the "Lion's Den"! evilgrin

We believe that men can and do choose, i.e., they are totally free to exercise their will... [Linked Image] always in accord with their nature. A man who is unregenerate, aka: not born again, by the power of the Spirit, is DEAD in sin, spiritually DEAD and thus will never choose anything spiritual. The natural man loves sin and hates righteousness. The natural man loves himself and hates God. The natural man has no ability to believe on Christ nor any desire to do what God wills. But the regenerate man loves God, desires holiness and thus he will choose to live by faith in Christ and to do what God commands.

Originally Posted by freewill
Free-will is a Bible term and concept.
Can you please direct me to a Bible passage that uses the term "free-will"? scratchchin

Originally Posted by freewill
Whosever will is invited to come to Christ by the Holy Spirit. You are commanded to abide in Christ, and He will abide in you. His yoke is EASY, and His burden LIGHT. Do you believe this? You canabide in Christ because you were created to walk with your God. It is natural.
Yes, ALL are "invited", actually commanded (Acts 17:30) to repent and believe on Christ. But the command to do so is not synonymous with the ability to do so. nope Responsibility and ability are two entirely different things. Christ's sheep will abide in Him because He has sent His Spirit to abide in them to do that which God requires of them (Phil 2:12,13) and Christ forever makes intercession for them (Heb 7:25; cp. John 10:28,29; Rom 8:29,30).


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freewill #46864 Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by freewill
Elizabeth Eliot revealed that the tribeman that murdered her husband and the others admitted that deep down, they knew what they did was wrong, and they further told that they knew stealing was wrong, and that what they did to each other during tribal wars was wrong. Now these people were about as backward, degenerate and God-forsaken as one could imagine, and yet THEY KNEW inside all about right and wrong! Suicide bombers sin against their own conscience and the light within them that they have. They are without excuse.
Yes, ALL men have the law of God written on their hearts which they constantly and always disobey and for which God will judge them on that last day (Rom 2:14,15; 3:9-18; Gen 6:5; 8:21). Their corruption of nature is no excuse for sin is what ALL men desire most in their fallen state. They are FREE to sin. But they are not FREE to do righteousness (Jer 13:23; Matt 7:17,18; 12:33).

Originally Posted by freewill
All this person had to do is what many have done who were in false religion but honestly wanted truth--cry out to God, and SOMEHOW, God gets truth to them as only He can. He does it all the time all over the world.
Yes, all this person had to do was to desire God. But that desire is not something any man has by nature. God must create that desire in a sinner, aka: regeneration, the creating of a new nature which is spiritual and inclined toward God, His truth and all that is good.


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Pilgrim #46865 Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:23 AM
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You have two passages above out of many I can cite.

Also, stating Calvinistic ideas is not proof.

The absurd idea that we can punish people for not being able to do what we command is immoral.

Imagine a father whipping his crippled child because she can't get up and walk at his command. Such behavior is reprehensible in men, and to ascribe such wickedness to God is blasphemy.

In Levitticus One above, we have spiritually dead men not only invited to come to God, but many do, and God says they can because they have THEIR OWN VOLUNTARY WILL. Sin did not destroy man's ability to come to God when He says "Come over here". They either will or they won't.

Also, repeating the mythical Calvinist definition of "free-will" that you claim to believe in is not proof. The idea that "men are free to do what they desire to do, and since they only desire sin, they are free to do that"--this is pure sophistry. Freedom of will means CHOICE to do opposite things.

There is no freedom or choice if one cannot do other than what he chooses. And God acknowledges fallen, spiritually dead men have such freedom. Joshua 24:

14 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.

15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;



The above assumes the OBVIOUS--that men are free and CAN CHOOSE to follow the Lord or not. And notice that these spiritually DEAD IN SIN Jews chose to follow the Lord!

FREEWILL:


Leviticus 22:18
Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever [he be] of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his FREEWILL offerings, which they will offer unto the LORD for a burnt offering;

Leviticus 22:21
And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD to accomplish [his] vow, or a FREEWILL offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein.

Leviticus 22:23
Either a bullock or a lamb that hath any thing superfluous or lacking in his parts, that mayest thou offer [for] a FREEWILL offering; but for a vow it shall not be accepted.

Leviticus 23:38
Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your FREEWILL offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.

Numbers 15:3
And will make an offering by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice in performing a vow, or in a FREEWILL offering, or in your solemn feasts, to make a sweet savour unto the LORD, of the herd, or of the flock:

Numbers 29:39
These [things] ye shall do unto the LORD in your set feasts, beside your vows, and your FREEWILL offerings, for your burnt offerings, and for your meat offerings, and for your drink offerings, and for your peace offerings.

Deuteronomy 12:6
And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your FREEWILL offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:

Deuteronomy 12:17
Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy FREEWILL offerings, or heave offering of thine hand:

Deuteronomy 16:10
And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the LORD thy God with a tribute of a FREEWILL offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give [unto the LORD thy God], according as the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:

Deuteronomy 23:23
That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; [even] a FREEWILL offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the LORD thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.

2 Chronicles 31:14
And Kore the son of Imnah the Levite, the porter toward the east, [was] over the FREEWILL offerings of God, to distribute the oblations of the LORD, and the most holy things.

Ezra 1:4
And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the FREEWILL offering for the house of God that [is] in Jerusalem.

Ezra 3:5
And afterward [offered] the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a FREEWILL offering unto the LORD.

Ezra 7:13
I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and [of] his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own FREEWILL to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.

Ezra 7:16
And all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon, with the FREEWILL offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which [is] in Jerusalem:

Ezra 8:28
And I said unto them, Ye [are] holy unto the LORD; the vessels [are] holy also; and the silver and the gold [are] a FREEWILL offering unto the LORD God of your fathers.

Psalms 119:108
Accept, I beseech thee, the FREEWILL offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.


VOLUNTARY:

Leviticus 1:3
If his offering [be] a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own VOLUNTARY will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.

Leviticus 7:16
But if the sacrifice of his offering [be] a vow, or a VOLUNTARY offering, it shall be eaten the same day that he offereth his sacrifice: and on the morrow also the remainder of it shall be eaten:

Ezekiel 46:12
Now when the prince shall prepare a VOLUNTARY burnt offering or peace offerings voluntarily unto the LORD, [one] shall then open him the gate that looketh toward the east, and he shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, as he did on the sabbath day: then he shall go forth; and after his going forth [one] shall shut the gate.

Colossians 2:18
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a VOLUNTARY humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,












Last edited by freewill; Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:29 AM.
Pilgrim #46866 Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:38 AM
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The "born-again before faith" doctrine you espouse is utterly false and a blatant creation of the Calvinist apologist to set aside the fact that fallen men can and do believe in the Gospel message. The order the Bible teaches is the opposite, as usual. Men believe, AND THEN they are regenerated. Prior to this, the Holy Spirit CONVICTS THEM of their sin, He does not regenerate them until AFTER they believe-Eph 1:12-13:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

It is as if Paul knew the Calvinists were coming one day, and so worded this so as to DESTROY the idea of being sealed with the Spirit Himself, which is what regeneration is-John 3:5-8, happens before we believe! Notice twice he says AFTER having already used the word FIRST. They--the Ephesians FIRST trusted in Christ AFTER they heard the gospel, they believed, and AFTER THAT they were sealed with the Spirit, which means he entered their hearts. He is the seal. he regenerates AFTER men believe, not before, which proves men CAN BELIEVE, which disproves Calvinism






freewill #46867 Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by freewill
Also, stating Calvinistic ideas is not proof.

The absurd idea that we can punish people for not being able to do what we command is immoral.

Imagine a father whipping his crippled child because she can't get up and walk at his command. Such behavior is reprehensible in men, and to ascribe such wickedness to God is blasphemy.
1) Biblical ideas ARE proof however and Calvinism does just that.

2) Your example of the crippled child is irrelevant because it is not illustrative of the truth about man's fallen condition. All men are guilty before God and have inherited a corruption of nature because they sinned in Adam and this is the just punishment which we ALL received (Rom 5:12-18; 1Cor 15:21,22; Eph 2:1-5). The child didn't choose to be crippled, assuming that it was born in that condition. But the sinful nature which all men have they did will to have in Adam, according to the Scriptures, and were consequently punished for it. Thus their inability is due to their own doing.

3) Your references to a FREEWILL offering as proof of "free-will" is a joke, right? [Linked Image]

Originally Posted by freewill
Also, repeating the mythical Calvinist definition of "free-will" that you claim to believe in is not proof. The idea that "men are free to do what they desire to do, and since they only desire sin, they are free to do that"--this is pure sophistry. Freedom of will means CHOICE to do opposite things.
Freedom of will does NOT mean "CHOICE" to opposite things. igiveup It simply means that a person is free to make choices according to his nature. Man will always choose that which is most important to him at any given time under any given circumstance.


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Pilgrim #46868 Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:58 AM
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You are wrong on many counts. Freedom is defined by a Calvinist in a way found NOWHERE IN THE KNOWN WORLD! It is an artificial construct to suit their inherently contradictory doctrine. It is man-made to save Calvinism not only from Biblical refutation, but from logical and rational refutation as well. Calvinism shipwrecks at the bar of Scripture, logic and reason, three gifts from God that expose the folly of men and religious falsehoods.

I said freewill is a Bible term. You asked for proof. I gave over a dozen references. Why is this a "joke" to you? Well, obviously because you can't answer. You asked for proof that freewill is a Bible term, as if it wasn't, and then when I give all those Scriptures, you ask if it is a joke? CHECK-MATE friend. I went further and listed the places God references man's VOLUNTARY WILL in COMING TO HIM. CHECK MATE.

Notice this line of argument from Pilgrim:

2) Your example of the crippled child is irrelevant because it is not illustrative of the truth about man's fallen condition. All men are guilty before God and have inherited a corruption of nature because they sinned in Adam and this is the just punishment which we ALL received (Rom 5:12-18; 1Cor 15:21,22; Eph 2:1-5). The child didn't choose to be crippled, assuming that it was born in that condition. But the sinful nature which all men have they did will to have in Adam, according to the Scriptures, and were consequently punished for it. Thus their inability is due to their own doing.

The above would be laughable if it weren't for the fact that some Christians actually believe this foppery. All people not yet born, not yet even existing "choose" to have a sinful nature that would make sure they couldn't believe and went to Hell??? How can non-existent non-beings "choose" anything??? And I thought GOD CHOSE? How is it these non-existent, non-sinful phantoms can choose anything, apart from God and then get blamed for it? Well...this is the problem of living in the Calvinist fantasy land of illogic, irrationality and delusion.

Further, my illustration fits Calvinism TO A "TEE". The fact of the matter is you claim men are born morally crippled and UNABLE to believe. So God COMMANDS THEM to believe, knowing they were born in this crippled condition and then punishes them for not uncrippling themselves! OH YES that is EXACTLY what you believe, minus all the flowery rhetoric and non-sense "explanations". The idea that people choose to have a nature that would damn them, that would incapacitate them from having heaven instead--the idea that they did this when THEY DID NOT EXIST is one is the stupidest things the depraved mind of man could utter to save the lie he chooses to believe in.


In Calvinism, God beats and punishes a cripple for not being able to walk. Further, God has the ability to heal the cripple so she can walk. But God "sovereignly" chooses not to, but BEATS THE CHILD FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER for her "crime". Yes, that is the "god" of Calvinism, and that is the "criminal justice system" of Calvinism. And when this is laid out in bare fashion, stripped of all its highsounding religious and pious talking fiction, immediatley the Calvinst recoils and tries TO DENY the ugly truth about what he REALLY believes. Very few Calvinists can bear the truth of what they believe when it is exposed in the open.






Last edited by freewill; Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:46 AM.
freewill #46872 Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by freewill
Their corruption of nature is no excuse for sin is what ALL men desire most in their fallen state. They are FREE to sin. But they are not FREE to do righteousness (Jer 13:23; Matt 7:17,18; 12:33).

The Scriptures Pilgrim lists do not touch this issue at all. But he evoids the ones that do. Notice what God said to Cain in Genesis 4:

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Now lets notice a few things. First Cain and Abel are both, according to Calvinism, DEAD IN SIN, UNABLE TO OBEY, BELIEVE, BY NATURE CHILDREN OF WRATH, ETC. So here comes Abel and God HAS RESPECT for him AND his offering. But not for Cain. And he says to Cain further, that if he "DOETH WELL" Cain WOULD BE ACCEPTED!!!
Free will is interwoven throughout the Bible. The problem isn't Calvinists denying free will, the problem is in how they define it.

Originally Posted by freewill
I though there is nothing fallen men can do that God respects and accepts. I thought there is nothing man can do that God would call doing "well"? And yet here we see RIGHT IN THE BEGINNING that the Calvinist has got it all wrong, and things are other than what they claim? Why did God accept Abel and his offering and not Cains? God tells us in 1John 3:

12 Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Notice that John tells us that Cain murdered his brother because his brother's WORKS were-----what? RIGHTEOUS! Yes, sinful, fallen, totally depraved Abel's WORKS were RIGHTEOUS, and that is why God had respect not only for Abel's works but for Abel himself!
And you cut off another of the hydra's heads. The Calvinist belief that man is totally depraved and incapable of good appears to be flatly contradicted by the conduct of Abel.


Originally Posted by freewill
And further, God told Cain that IF HE DID WELL, he would be accepted as well. So much for men NOT BEING FREE to do well, but only free to SIN. That is A LIE. Both Cain and Abel WERE FREE to do righteous works or not, and even after Cain blew it, God said he could try again, get it right, and God would accept him. And he further warned Cain, NOT that he was totally depraved and helpless in sin, but that sin was AT THE DOOR, and desired to have him, and the Cain MUST MASTER IT. How can God tell him this??? How can Cain master sin? And why did God say it was AT THE DOOR? I thought it controls all men inside and out? Well because the doctrine of TOTAL DEPRAVITY is another lie.
Well said. You are attacking this on two fronts, for it's very clear that both brothers had free will. And far from the exercise of free will trespassing on the sovereignty of God, here you have God pleading for Cain to choose righteously.

Originally Posted by freewill
Notice Job One:

1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

What??? A man born in sin, only able to sin, only free to sin, not born again, God calls PERFECT, UPRIGHT, one that feared God and shunned evil? How can a man who can ONLY SIN shun evil? How can such a man exist in a pre-regenerate state???

God calls Job perfect and upright--upright means someone WHO DOES THINGS right. So much for total depravity. Notice what else God says of Job:

8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

So shall the Calvinst SLANDER Abel and Job and DENY what God has said of these men???

Unfortunately these arguments with Calvinists go in circles because they are thinking along a different paradigm. From the outside looking in, Calvinists believe man cannot have complete, unfettered free will outside of what has been preordained for him because that would subtract from God's sovereignty. Man is free to ride the train, but the tracks only go in one direction. Man is free to cast his vote, but his ballot only has one candidate. So in the Calvinist mindset, man freely chooses what has already been predetermined for him. It's an oddly hilarious circular paradox, but it makes perfect sense to them.

You actually won this debate the moment you brought up Job. For if Job could not choose perdition, having been predestined to choose God's righteousness, then it would have been a hollow victory indeed and Satan would have made mention of it. Satan's reasoning for Job's righteousness is that God set a hedge of protection and blessing around him. Satan was trying to make the case that Job's righteousness hung on the thread of God's blessing, and once the blessing was removed, Job would certainly curse God. Even Satan understood that Job had free will and could choose to die. Brought to its logical conclusion, the Calvinist view actually becomes an assault on God's glory here.

Let's consider this more closely. Would Satan have failed to object to the terms of this wager if Job's righteous decisions hinged on God's grace to quicken him from a state of total depravity? Would Satan. skilled lawyer that he is, have neglected to point out that because Job couldn't freely choose God without "help" that God's glory has thereby been diminished? Would Satan not demand a more equal field of play in which Job had uninfringed free-agency by which to make his choice?

The logic here proves fatal to Calvinist theology, does it not?


Liberalism -- Ideas so good, they have to be mandated.
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Dear free-will
like I said this is all new to me but I have a few questions for you. If you have 2 inner-city children with all things being equal and you give to both the opportunity for an education all living paid, you even promise them success to the point of becoming famous wealthy professionals. There is only one condition- sometimes it will be very hard and present state will be the easy path of least resistance. One chooses the hard way with a future, the other prefers to stay with his life as it is. Would we not say cudos to the one who chooses wisely and tsk, tsk , tsk, to the other? Would there not be some small boasting the wise boy could rightfully claim? Yet the bible says in no way can we take credit for ANY of the salvation process.

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You said to mix "truth with faith". Ok where do I get that faith? I don't have it in me, it is the gift of God. I was an agnostic jew, I cried out to God when I never even knew His name. Did I just have that "just right amount of goodness" in me to hunger for my creator? I might be new in this but this much I KNOW- HE put that hunger in there I did not.
I have a daughter. When she was little if she were to say" I am going to cross the busy street outside, it looks fun". I as a responsible parent would stop her no matter what it took because I know the danger there. She cannot see that danger.Are you saying that as a child of God that He will do any less for me? Knowing me from before the foundation of the world will He let me cross the street and say "ok, its your choice". If our God said "none shall pluck them out of my hand", I consider Rachel her biggest threat Why didn't He say "None but yourself"? Sorry for the rambling.

freewill #46891 Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:37 PM
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Originally Posted by freewill
The "born-again before faith" doctrine you espouse is utterly false and a blatant creation of the Calvinist apologist to set aside the fact that fallen men can and do believe in the Gospel message. The order the Bible teaches is the opposite, as usual. Men believe, AND THEN they are regenerated. Prior to this, the Holy Spirit CONVICTS THEM of their sin, He does not regenerate them until AFTER they believe-Eph 1:12-13:

Why is regeneration necessary if man can believe without first being regenerated? Why is it then also not possible for man to simply do the right things?

Johan

Johan #46894 Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:57 PM
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"…God must be greatly disappointed in these events; and so the grand scheme and contrivance for our redemption, and destroying the works of the devil by the Messiah, and all the great things God has done in the prosecution of these designs, must be only the fruits of His own disappointment, and contrivances of His to mend and patch up, as well as He could, His system which originally was all very good, and perfectly beautiful, but was marred, broken, and confounded by the free will of angels and men." - Jonathan Edwards (The Freedom of the Will, 131-132)


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via_dolorosa #46895 Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:40 PM
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Originally Posted by via_dolorosa
Originally Posted by freewill
The Scriptures Pilgrim lists do not touch this issue at all. But he evoids the ones that do.
Now there is a classic refutation undergirded by sound exegesis. [Linked Image]

Originally Posted by via_dolorosa
Originally Posted by freewill
Now lets notice a few things. First Cain and Abel are both, according to Calvinism, DEAD IN SIN, UNABLE TO OBEY, BELIEVE, BY NATURE CHILDREN OF WRATH, ETC.
Calvinism asserts no such thing. We would assert that Abel was regenerate at the time of this offering, else he would have followed the manner of Cain's 'free-will' offering, which was contrary to what was required.

Originally Posted by via_dolorosa
Free will is interwoven throughout the Bible. The problem isn't Calvinists denying free will, the problem is in how they define it.
1. It has not been established that free-will is interwoven throughout the Bible. It is assumed but not proven.

2. Calvinists define free-will as the ability to choose that which is contrary to one's nature. This has been established with myriad passages from Scripture. And by this definition, even God Himself doesn't have free-will, for God cannot sin. Man will always choose that which is most important to him under any given circumstance. And fallen man having a corruption of nature which is at enmity with God will always choose that which is sin. (Gen 6:5; 8:21; Jer 13:23; Rom 8:7,8, et al)

Originally Posted by via_dolorosa
Originally Posted by freewill
I though there is nothing fallen men can do that God respects and accepts. I thought there is nothing man can do that God would call doing "well"? And yet here we see RIGHT IN THE BEGINNING that the Calvinist has got it all wrong, and things are other than what they claim? Why did God accept Abel and his offering and not Cains? God tells us in 1John 3:12 Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
yep 1Jh 3:1 explains things clearly... Abel's works were righteous, which according to Jesus and Paul, his works were righteous because the tree was made good, i.e., Cain had a regenerate nature which was predisposed toward God and all that was good (Matt 7:16-20; 12:33; Rom 3:9-18; cf. Ps 53:1-3; 8:29,30; Eph 1:4; 2:1-3,8-10; 4:17-19; 5:25-27; Col 1:21,22).

Originally Posted by via_dolorosa
Unfortunately these arguments with Calvinists go in circles because they are thinking along a different paradigm. From the outside looking in, Calvinists believe man cannot have complete, unfettered free will outside of what has been preordained for him because that would subtract from God's sovereignty. Man is free to ride the train, but the tracks only go in one direction. Man is free to cast his vote, but his ballot only has one candidate. So in the Calvinist mindset, man freely chooses what has already been predetermined for him. It's an oddly hilarious circular paradox, but it makes perfect sense to them.
1. As explained elsewhere, IF man has this Pelagian/semi-Pelagian 'free-will', then if held consistently, which some do, then you end up with "Open Theism/Middle Knowledge" where God is not Omnipotent. Why? Because God cannot know the future, regardless if God is 'outside of time' or not, due to the fact that He cannot know what any individual will do until that individual decides to exercise this free-will.

2. IF free-will is true, then prophecy is impossible, for there is an infinite number of possibilities concerning the creation, which could take place that would thwart its fulfillment. Only if God has foreordained all things and providentially governs all things to their appointed ends is prophecy possible.

3. The epitome of the biblical, Calvinist system is marvelously displayed in the crucifixion of Christ. No one was forced against their will to crucify Him. Each individual did exactly and most freely what they wanted to do... YET, all was done in complete conformity to God's eternal foreordination.

Quote
Acts 2:22-24 (ASV) "Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know; him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay: whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it."

Acts 3:17-18 (ASV) "And now, brethren, I know that in ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. But the things which God foreshowed by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ should suffer, he thus fulfilled."

Acts 4:26-28 (ASV) "The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against his Anointed: for of a truth in this city against thy holy Servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together, to do whatsoever thy hand and thy council foreordained to come to pass."


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