The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum The Bible

Why do many christians think that the Bible is not completely trustworthy and written by man? Sure, many have a high regard of the Bible, but not with the claim of its being the infallible, inerrant Word of God in all its books. It is easier for them to believe in the miracles - virgin birth, resurrection - than the Bible being the Word of God. Why is that?

John,

1) Probably the answer you don't want to hear... but the Spirit testifies of the divine inspiration of the Bible and thus it is the supreme authority in all matters of faith and practice, it being infallible and inerrant since it is the very word of God written. I'll let you draw the inescapable conclusion.

2) How can one believe in the virgin birth, the resurrection of the dead, etc., and not antecedently hold that the Bible is divinely inspired, inerrant and infallble since those doctrines are found in the Bible?

We are living in dark times where there are myriad false conversions that sprout up from myriad false gospels and the result is a 'supermarket' type of Christianity where the individual gets to pick and choose what they want to believe according to their personal preferences.

Jeremiah 6:16-21 (ASV) "Thus saith Jehovah, Stand ye in the ways and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way; and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls: but they said, We will not walk [therein]. And I set watchmen over you, [saying], Hearken to the sound of the trumpet; but they said, We will not hearken. Therefore hear, ye nations, and know, O congregation, what is among them. Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words; and as for my law, they have rejected it. To what purpose cometh there to me frankincense from Sheba, and the sweet cane from a far country? your burnt-offerings are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices pleasing unto me. Therefore thus saith Jehovah, Behold, I will lay stumbling-blocks before this people; and the fathers and the sons together shall stumble against them; the neighbor and his friend shall perish."

John 8:43 (ASV) "Why do ye not understand my speech? [Even] because ye cannot hear my word."

There are several excellent articles on The Highway that address the subjects of inspiration, infallibility and inerrancy. Use the "Search" feature on the main page to find them. One that comes to mind which I have always deemed worthy of note is G.H. Hospers', The Doctrine of Inspiration.

Twenty years ago, as a tactic against soft on abortion public church positions, I tried to get local churches to adopt serious creation studies for their Sunday School kids. A handful already made a point of stressing the creation and its scientific validity. Most didnt and do not to this day. Not a good idea .For kids in public schools its like sending a soldier up against field artillery armed with a BB gun.

John,

I have a difficult time believing that a genuine Christian "thinks that the Bible is not completely trustworthy and written by man." I like what Pilgrim said from John, and I also like, "The [basis of the] judgment (indictment, the test by which men are judged, the ground for the sentence) lies in this: the Light has come into the world, and people have loved the darkness rather than and more than the Light, for their works (deeds) were evil. For every wrongdoer hates (loathes, detests) the Light, and will not come out into the Light but shrinks from it, lest his works (his deeds, his activities, his conduct) be exposed and reproved." Jn 3:19-20 and "[So] if we say we are partakers together and enjoy fellowship with Him when we live and move and are walking about in darkness, we are [both] speaking falsely and do not live and practice the Truth [which the Gospel presents]." 1 Jn 1:6 and "For the time is coming when [people] will not tolerate (endure) sound and wholesome instruction, but, having ears itching [for something pleasing and gratifying], they will gather to themselves one teacher after another to a considerable number, chosen to satisfy their own liking and to foster the errors they hold, And will turn aside from hearing the truth and wander off into myths and man-made fictions." 2 Timothy 4:3-4. Some people in Bible studies I attend come to the Word of God with there own ideas instead of letting the Word of God master their thinking and attitudes to be open to God shaping new ideas (truest truth) that is faithful to Holy Scripture. I find it sad, but the challenge to me is to love them and bring to light words from Holy Scripture that the HS can use to perhaps cause them to think in a different way. Not my way, but God's way.

Pilgrim

As much as I hate to admit it, I agree with you.

I know people like that and although I would like to think they are regenerate, I have a hard time believing they are.

I know others who think that there are errors in the Bible and that doesn't make any real difference on whether or not the Bible is true or not. Seeing how they believe that the Bible was not meant to be infallible, but as God's letter to mankind.

The bottom line however is that if we can't trust the Bible as God's inspired infallible Word, we can't be sure of the essential doctrines of the faith. This by the way is the message that many in the Emergent Church movement are saying. They believe that the questions are more important than the answers.

Certainly not the Christianity that I know; in fact I can honestly say if I believed that message, I couldn't call myself a Christian.

Tom

Okay, let's change gears. There are plenty of professing Christians who take the view that portions of Scripture is cultural related - meaning for the time it was written. Let's forget them on this. Now, how about those who profess the truthfulness of the Bible, but sees the Bible as allowing women pastors, at least elders. Is it just a disconnect, or does the truthfulness of the Bible allows a person to take those types of positions?

Oh boy, could I ever be long winded about that one.

I had my share of debates with an old former pastor about that one and though he was orthodox on almost all other topics, he sure was off on this one. Though, I would say he was a little less clear on whether Scripture allowed women elders, but very clear that he believed that the office of deacon was for both men and women.
This kind of reasoning, however, seeped into egalitarianism in both the home and the Church. With Eph.5:21 being a favorite verse of his, which in his view seemed to trump the verses that follow.
Was/is he truly regenerate? I would like to think so, but these kinds of things certainly have a bad effect on congregations.
I better stop now.

Tom

John & Tom:

Last Wednesday I was allowed to lead a Bible study on 1 Tim 3. After the study I was sad because all the participants had differing views about church officers. Some did not know there were such officers in the Christian church - some did not think that members of a body would have the authority to discern (judge) whether a man had the qualities outlined in the chapter - some expressed the need for officers at all. Here is a quote from Sinclair Ferguson, "the fellowship where the Word of God is expounded and applied in the power of the Spirit, (the Church) becomes a hospital for the sick and a gymnasium to build up spiritual strength and stamina. This is the biblical understanding of the preaching of the Word of God. Its goal is not merely educational but transformational; it informs the mind in order to touch the conscience, mold the will, cleanse the affections and sanctify the whole life. The Word is thus allowed to do its own sanctifying work, as our Lord himself prayed: 'Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth' (Jn 17:17). This requires intensive treatment." I want our God to transform me on how to explain better the truth of Holy Scripture to others in love. I ask myself, is that not what God said through Paul to Timothy, "The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith." I want to be a man who practices Proverbs 17:27-28 and that is where I want to head - to teach the more mature truths of Holy Scripture (Rom 11:33-36) in a humble and loving manner even to a woman Teaching Elder and let the truth "do its own sanctifying work." Just as I am not up to loving my wife as Christ loves the Church, I am not up to showing up at every Bible study and sharing biblical insights to all members and displaying the glory of God in my speech, but I must continue to do so to the end of my life on this earth.

The quote by Sinclair Ferguson is very true. AND, there is another aspect to the preaching/teaching of the Word of God which wasn't mentioned, which Paul gives instruction to young Timothy, who was given charge over a congregation of the Lord:

Thus, here there is another application of the Word of God and that is "reproof and correction" which is part of instructing the professed saints in order that they may be sanctified.

Additionally, it is the responsibility of the Church to discipline, which is one of the three marks of the Church, those who err in doctrine and/or life. Those who refuse to repent of their sin(s) are to be disciplined and even excommunicated from the assembly, (1Cor 5:4,5; Titus 3:10,11). In the case of an elder, defrocking is included. Now, in regard to a woman who has either taken it upon herself or a congregation or a denomination, she should be removed from that position since she has no biblical warrant to hold it. The congregation or denomination who allows a woman to occupy the office of elder should be disfellowshipped.

1) Those who adopt the "cultural boundness" idea beyond what should be obvious (intentionally vague ) have opened the door to all kinds of errors to various degrees. For example, there are few who would relegate Paul's instructions concerning the Lord's Supper in 1 Corinthians 11 to a bygone era, i.e., bound to the 1st century early Church. But, in the same passage where Paul is addressing matters of biblical worship, he brings up the matter of headcovering for both men and women. It is interesting, at least to me, that the same people who would never dream of imposing "cultural boundness" to the Lord's Supper have no problem dismissing Paul's instructions on headcoverings as being restricted to a Greek cultural practice of the first century. The more extremists would include the explicit teachings in the Bible against homosexuality as passé.

2) On the matter of women office bearers, the Bible doesn't allow one to adopt such a view. However, there is a big difference between embracing this pernicious error vs. rejecting the divine inspiration, infallibility and Inerrancy of the Bible as a whole. It is a dangerous position to take as it often reveals a much more serious and latent problem as to one's overall view of Scripture itself which allows them to circumvent the clear teaching concerning the qualifications for the offices of Elder and Deacon. Fortunately, some don't digress any further than that. But many do follow down that road and begin casting off other doctrines which are non-confessional/biblical. If nothing else, when I come across someone who holds to women in office the proverbial "red flag" is immediately hoisted and I become suspicious of that person and thus begin to read/listen to what this person has to say everywhere else with a critical eye/ear.

Here is another quote from Sinclair Ferguson, "In three verses (Eph. 4:17-19) Paul summarises the teaching he gives at greater length in Romans 1:18-32. It is sobering conscience-probing analysis. It describes the true nature of the world apart from Christ. It is a catalogue of what we all are by nature. He puts a spiritual stethoscope to our hearts to let us hear that its beat is out of control. Apart from Christ's work the cosmos was destined to futility (Rom. 8:20). Apart from God's special revelation the human race (=Gentiles, those who have never had the special revelation of grace) was condemned to futility. Its every effort to solve the jigsaw puzzle of existence was doomed to frustration. Satisfaction and fulfilment sought in the creation rather than in the Creator, worshipping it rather than him, became the high road to eternal disappointment. While unbelievers may affirm that their rejection of the Christian faith is fundamentally a matter of intellectual integrity, Paul stresses that the rebellious disposition of the heart drives and directs the understanding. Thus the Scriptures tell us something about the unbeliever which he or she tends to deny, suppress and repress - namely that their rejection of God runs contrary to what they know 'deep down' to be true (cf. Rom. 1:18-23). Since this was once true of us we need to be reminded to be patient in our witness and to pray for the illuminating and regenerating work of the Spirit as we bear witness to Christ."

All of us were once children of wrath and enemies of the Living God, and WE "circumvented the clear teaching concerning the qualifications for the offices of Elder and Deacon." While it is true I am "not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God" (1 Jn. 4:1) I need to remember the exhortation from our brother Ferguson that everyone outside of Christ was ONCE a master circumventor of the clear teaching of EVERYTHING in the Scriptures. However comma I need to be patient (and loving) in my witness and to pray for the illuminating and regenerating work of the Spirit and believe that our God will change their views about doctrines that are unbiblical (e.g., women elders). To me that is what Christianity is about - God reforming or transforming my life, understanding what I once was .... who I am now .... what happened to me. Here is Sinclair Ferguson again, "Clearly it takes a lifetime to work out into our thinking and living all the implications of this truth. But Paul has given notice that the gospel is message of cosmic proportions. It is no small thing to become a Christian. We do not naturally think about ourselves this way. We need to be taught it. And we need to learn it. Better, we need to learn Christ. That will lead us to discover how our old identity has gone; we have been given a new identity in Christ. Our lives can never be the same again."

Sinclair Ferguson addressed the condition of the natural man, i.e., those who are totally depraved, dead in sin, unregenerate and thus by nature are God-haters. The passages he references, Eph 4:17-19 and Rom 1:18-32 evidence this clearly. His point, it seems to me, is that we are to be patient with unbelievers in our witness to them knowing that without the supernatural and sovereign regeneration power of the Holy Spirit they are helpless to change.

However, you have taken what Ferguson was addressing and applied it to those who profess to be Christians; changed by the power of the Spirit and thus are no longer enemies of God and have the indwelling Spirit. You further want to apply this "patience" we are to have with unbelievers to professing believers in the matter of heretical doctrine and life [implied]. I would have to disagree with your application. To delve a bit deeper into this matter I would like to put forth the following questions:

1) IF you thus believe, as your application would seem to apply, that we are to allow professing Christians to hold to heretical doctrine until such time as God through His Spirit reveals their error and changes their heart and mind, is discipline of such individuals justified? And if so, what kind of disciple would you prescribe?... a) for communicate members of a church, and b) for those ordained to office; Elder or Deacon?

2) How would you evaluate the manner which Jesus, Paul and the other authors of the Epistles of the NT dealt with those who held to heretical doctrine and/or practiced sinful behavior? Cf. the following for evaluation:

1. Matthew 12:34 (ASV) "Ye offspring of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh."
2. Matthew 23:29-33 (ASV) "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and garnish the tombs of the righteous, and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we should not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye witness to yourselves, that ye are sons of them that slew the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?"
3. 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 (ASV) "It is actually reported that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not even among the Gentiles, that one [of you] hath his father's wife. And ye are puffed up, and did not rather mourn, that he that had done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, being absent in body but present in spirit, have already as though I were present judged him that hath so wrought this thing, in the name of our Lord Jesus, ye being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
4. 1 Timothy 1:18-20 (ASV) "This charge I commit unto thee, my child Timothy, according to the prophecies which led the way to thee, that by them thou mayest war the good warfare; holding faith and a good conscience; which some having thrust from them made shipwreck concerning the faith: of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I delivered unto Satan, that they might be taught not to blaspheme."
5. Titus 3:9-11 (KJV) "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself."
6. 2 Peter 3:16-17 (KJV) "As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."
7. Acts 20:29-30 (ASV) "I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them."
8. Romans 16:17-18 (ASV) "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them that are causing the divisions and occasions of stumbling, contrary to the doctrine which ye learned: and turn away from them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Christ, but their own belly; and by their smooth and fair speech they beguile the hearts of the innocent."
9. 2 Corinthians 11:12-14 (ASV) "But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them that desire an occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, fashioning themselves into apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for even Satan fashioneth himself into an angel of light."
10. Titus 1:10-16 (ASV) "For there are many unruly men, vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped; men who overthrow whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, idle gluttons. This testimony is true. For which cause reprove them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men who turn away from the truth. To the pure all things are pure: but to them that are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. They profess that they know God; but by their works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."
11. Galatians 5:10-12 (ASV) "I have confidence to you-ward in the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be. But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? then hath the stumbling-block of the cross been done away. I would that they that unsettle you would even go beyond circumcision [Grk: castrate themselves]."

Thanks in advance for your thoughtful reply.

Pilgrim said, "However, you have taken what Ferguson was addressing and applied it to those who profess to be Christians; changed by the power of the Spirit and thus are no longer enemies of God and have the indwelling Spirit. You further want to apply this "patience" we are to have with unbelievers to professing believers in the matter of heretical doctrine and life [implied]."

Additional quote by Sinclair Ferguson, "The apostle (Paul) is apparently viewing himself from one particular aspect, namely in the light of the holy and spiritual law of God (Rom. 7:14,16). In that light, even as a believer, indwelling sin is revealed in all its ugly rebellion against God. Sin remains, and its nature as rebellion and its native enslaving tendencies remain unchanged." and "The believer lives within the context of a real contradiction to which he or she has been introduced by the gift of the Spirt. He or she has been sold as sin's slave; not even redemption obliterates the influences of that bondage - at least not yet. Even when it is being lavishly rebuilt, a ruined castle continues to be marked by past devastations. Rather than tone down the contrast flesh and Spirit, Paul states it plainly. Only when Christ finally delivers him out of the body of death (7:24) will the contradiction be finally resolved (cf. Rom. 8:23)."

As a Christian I am going through life long withdrawl symptoms in the process of my sanctification. While there has been a separation with my past addiction to sin, my new nature creates tension rather than destroys conflict with it. I live with the tension as a permanent reality.

Back to Ferguson, "The startling reality of divine sanctification is that it is the presence of the Spirit in our hearts that is the root cause of the establishment of the conflict. It is those who have the firstfruits of the Spirit who groan inwardly as they wait eagerly for the adoption, the redemption of their bodies (Rom. 8:23). and "this view of Romans 7:14-15 should not be taken to suggest that Paul views the Christian as paralysed by sin and the flesh. Rather, it is the Christian's task to put to death the misdeeds of the body (Rom. 8:13ff.; Col. 3:4) in the light of union with Christ and the leading and indwelling of the Spirit of sonship."

With respect, Jobeluan, The question is about heresy, not the ongoing struggle with sin that we all share.

Especially when it comes to teachers and those who minister to the church in His name, it is vital that they be faithful to the written word of God, rightly divided. They can do an awful lot of damage if they teach false doctrine. How much patience should false teachers be shown? (HINT: How much patience did Jesus have with the scribes and pharisees, or Paul with the Gnostics and Judaizers?)

Although I mostly agree with Sinclair Ferguson, the quote has nothing to do with the issue being discussed here and particularly my direct questions to you. Unfortunately, you did you even attempt to deal with the several passages which I provided with the hopes that they would get you to think a bit about what you said in regard to having patience as learning truth takes time but particularly with the matter of someone espousing women in office in the Church. Doubtless a long list of erroneous doctrines could be substituted, but since women in office was mentioned, I don't mind sticking with that for the time being.

So, again I would ask you to interact with my questions so that this subject can continue to be dealt with and if nothing else, others might gain some benefit from it.