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Robin #51362 Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Robin
The wonder is not so much that God has shown mercy to some and justice to the rest. The real wonder is that He shows mercy to anyone at all! For the elect are no less deserving of His just wrath than the non-elect. The fact that any rebel justly deserving hell is spared from it by the sacrifice of the only righteous One who ever lived is spectacular proof of God's infinite mercy in spite of the fact that such mercy is not given to all rebels.
AMEN! If someone wishes to emphasize the love, mercy and grace of God it isn't going to be accomplished by making such universal but particular. In a sermon by C.H. Spurgeon he mentioned that a woman approached him after a service and asked how it was possible that God hated Esau. His reply was that her question wasn't really that difficult to answer. The real question should have been, how could God love Jacob? One has to ponder with awe how it is that Adam and Eve weren't immediately cast into hell. Why was Noah and his family spared from the flood and the rest of the entire world perished? Far too many are like poor Abraham who argued with God when he was told that Sodom and Gomorrah was going to be destroyed. God's answer should put our thinking on the right path. It is utterly impossible to comprehend the holiness of God nor the depth of depravity of man.

In regard to the atonement, again... How is it possible that God determined to save a particular people from the fallen race of Adam, but the Son voluntarily atoned for every man, woman and child? And what of the Holy Spirit? Does He dispense a universal 'prevenient grace' to be in accord with the Son? Or, does He side with the Father and only effectually call the elect? scratch1


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Tom #51363 Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:01 AM
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Tom,
My understanding of this is that Christ's blood is sufficient for all in two ways:
1. It is sufficient for all kinds of people: Jews, Greeks and Moslems; men, women, Pharisees and tax-collectors.
2. It is sufficient for all who will come. No one will ever trust in Christ for salvation and then be told, "Sorry, Christ's blood was only sufficient for so many people and you've missed the bus!"

'The one who comes to Me I will by no means turn away'
(John 6:37b). As Spurgeon said, our warrant to come to Christ is not that we think we might be elect, but that we are sinners and Christ died for such. But when we get to heaven, we shall find that God has loved us with an everlasting love, and drawn us to Him in time; and that Christ has paid for our sins specifically in full.


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Tim #51364 Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:20 AM
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"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (Jn. 3:18)

Apart from sufficiency for the reprobate, I don't understand how the text above can say "because." Certainly, original and actual sin is enough ground for condemnation, but this "because" adds to that condemnation. It seems to logically follow that apart from sufficiency for them, the "because" is meaningless.

"...and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved." (2 Thes. 2:10)

If receiving the love of the truth would have saved them hypothetically, doesn't this necessitate sufficiency for them? I don't think the text is saying that such reception would have made them elect, as that would be mixing first and second causes...

Tim #51365 Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:43 AM
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I am a little confused by this:
Quote
If receiving the love of the truth would have saved them hypothetically, doesn't this necessitate sufficiency for them?
How does "the love of the truth" save anybody? You quoted from Jn. 3:18 which speaks of believing on the only begotten Son of God and not on loving truth. However, let us say that this is the truth which is being alluded too. I will have to question how anyone could love the Truth unless it was given to him. Only the elect are given this through regeneration. Hence, it is accurate to say that the atonement was indeed sufficient for the elect. Nothing more is needed for this as the atonement of Christ is completely sufficient for what and whom it is intended.


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Tim #51366 Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Tim
Apart from sufficiency for the reprobate, I don't understand how the text above can say "because." Certainly, original and actual sin is enough ground for condemnation, but this "because" adds to that condemnation. It seems to logically follow that apart from sufficiency for them, the "because" is meaningless.
The CONTEXT is not addressing the atonement but rather the condition of man and man's negative response to the Christ. The emphasis here is upon man's responsibility and his lack of fulfilling it by believing.

Let's look at vs. 18 in CONTEXT:

Quote
John 3:14-21 (ASV) "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved. But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God."
The Son wasn't sent into the world to judge the world because it was already under the just judgment/condemnation of God. Again, the emphasis in this passage is upon man's lost condition, inability, and rejection of his only means of salvation, the person of the LORD Jesus Christ. Both the innate inability to believe (they loved darkness and hated the light) and their overt refusal to believe (he that believieth not, cometh not to the light) justify their condemnation. The positive side of all this is that those who have and will believe are not under judgment because they are united to Christ.

There is no implication whatsoever about a 'potential/hypothetical/possible' salvation because Christ has atoned for everyone's sins.


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Pilgrim #51367 Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:20 PM
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Pilgrim
Thanks, that makes sense.
Tom

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