The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum The use of "all"

Hey everyone,<br><br> I am in correspondence with the pastor of my old church on the doctrines of grace. He brought up 1 Timothy 2. I read the passage, then promptly did a search here on the highway for this topic, so as to not rehash it. <br><br>I found some good stuff you guys wrote, but I was particularly interested in an article by Dr. Gary Long: "An Exegetical Study of 1Timothy 2:4" that was linked in one of the posts. The link no longer works, and I was wondering if anyone knew where I could find it?<br><br>Thanks in advance,<br>Chris

blah blah blah...yeah i just didn't look hard enough.<br>I did find it. <br><br><br>If anyone has any more good input on this subject or links to other people with good input, I'd appreciate.<br><br>Thanks<br>Chris

The section The Highway has covering the term "all" is pretty complete. You may also desire to check out the meaning of the term "world" below as it is normally brought up in similar type conversations. A.W. says of the term "world."<br><br>It may appear to some of our readers that the exposition we have given of John 3:16 in the chapter on "Difficulties and Objections" is a forced and unnatural one, in as much as our definition of the term "world" seems to be out of harmony with the meaning and scope of this word in other passages, where, to supply the world of believers (God's elect) as a definition of "world" would make no sense. Many have said to us, "Surely, 'world' means world, that is, you, me, and everybody." In reply we would say: We know from experience how difficult it is to set aside the "traditions of men" and come to a passaGen. which we have heard explained in a certain way scores of times, and study it carefully for ourselves without bias. Nevertheless, this is essential if we would learn the mind of God.<br><br>Many people suppose they already know the simple meaning of John 3:16, and therefore they conclude that no diligent study is required of them to discover the precise teaching of this verse. Needless to say, such an attitude shuts out any further light which they otherwise might obtain on the passage. Yet, if anyone will take a concordance and read carefully the various passages in which the term "world" (as a translation of "kosmos") occurs, he will quickly perceive that to ascertain the precise meaning of the word "world" in any given passaGen. is not nearly so easy as is popularly supposed. The word "kosmos", and its English equivalent "world", is not used with a uniform significance in the New Testament. Very far from it. It is used in quite a number of different ways. Below we will refer to a few passages where this term occurs, suggesting a tentative definition in each case:<br><br>1 "Kosmos" is used of the Universe as a whole: Acts 17:24 — <br><br>"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth."<br><br>2 "Kosmos" is used of the earth: John 13:1 Eph 1:4, etc., etc. — <br><br>"When Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world he loved them unto the end." "Depart out of this world" signifies, leave this earth.<br><br>"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world." This expression signifies, before the earth was founded — compare Job 38:4 etc.<br><br>3 "Kosmos" is used of the world system: John 12:31 etc. "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the Prince of this world be cast out" — compare Matt. 4:8 and 1 John 5:19, R.V.<br><br>4 "Kosmos" is used of the whole human race: Rom. 3:19, etc. — <br><br>"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."<br><br>5 "Kosmos" is used of humanity minus believers: John 15:18; Rom. 3:6<br><br>"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you." Believers do not "hate" Christ, so that "the world" here must signify the world of unbelievers in contrast from believers who love Christ.<br><br>"God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world." Here is another passaGen. where "the world" cannot mean "you, me, and everybody", for believers will not be "judged" by God, see John 5:24. So that here, too, it must be the world of unbelievers which is in view.<br><br>6 "Kosmos" is used of Gentiles in contrast from Jews: Rom. 11:12 etc.<br><br>"Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them (Israel) the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their (Israel's) fulness." Note how the first clause in italics is defined by the latter clause placed in italics. Here, again, "the world" cannot signify all humanity for it excludes Israel!<br><br>7 "Kosmos" is used of believers only: John 1:29 3:16,17 6:33 12:47;<br><br>1 Cor. 4:9 2 Cor. 5:19. We leave our readers to turn to these passages, asking them to note, carefully, exactly what is said and predicated of "the world" in each place.<br><br>Thus it will be seen that "kosmos" has at least seven clearly defined different meanings in the New Testament. It may be asked, has then God used a word thus to confuse and confound those who read the Scriptures? We answer, No! nor has he written his Word for lazy people who are too dilatory, or too busy with the things of this world, or, like Martha, so much occupied with "serving", they have no time and no heart to "search" and "study" Holy Writ! Should it be asked further, But how is a searcher of the Scriptures to know which of the above meanings the term "world" has in any given passage? The answer is: This may be ascertained by a careful study of the context, by diligently noting what is predicated of "the world" in each passage, and by prayerfully consulting other parallel passages to the one being studied.<br><br>The principal subject of John 3:16 is Christ as the Gift of God. The first clause tells us what moved God to "give" his only begotten Son, and that was his great "love"; the second clause informs us for whom God "gave" his Son, and that is for, "whosoever (or, better, `every one') believeth"; while the last clause makes known why God "gave" his Son (his purpose), and that is, that everyone that believeth "should not perish but have everlasting life." That "the world" in John 3:16 refers to the world of believers (God's elect), in contradistinction from "the world of the ungodly" (2Pe 2:5), is established, unequivocally established, by a comparison of the other passages which speak of God's "love." "God commendeth his love toward us" — the saints, Rom. 5:8. "Whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth" — every son, Heb 12:6. "We love him, because he first loved us" — believers, 1 John 4:19. The wicked God "pities" (see Mt 18:33). Unto the unthankful and evil God is "kind" (see Luke 6:35). The vessels of wrath he endures "with much longsuffering" (see Rom. 9:22). But "his own" God "loves"!!

Thanks, Joe<br><br>Chris

Dear Chris,

John Owen thoroughly treats the passage in The Death of Death in the Death of Christ (The Banner of Truth Trust, 1995 reprint) on pages 231-236. The passage is too long to post here, but if you care to pm me I might find an alternate way to get it to you.

Joe<br><br>Very good post, I agree with you 100%<br><br>But just for the sake of argument, as you probably are aware most Arminians tell us after reading something that, that they would agree that the words "all" and "world" can have different meanings. But the "context" of the passage should always determine the meaning. One has to read too much into the words to take the Calvinist interpretation.<br><br>Of course I disagree with them on that, I don't think that the context disproves the Calvinist understanding at all. But I have yet to make any headway trying to explain what I mean to the person.<br>I was wondering how you would handle that aspect. I want to make sure that it isn't just my way of explaining things that isn't clear.<br><br>Tom

Very simply the articles that The Highway has goes into much description of how to handle this multi-faceted question. The Atonement

I actually think one of my roommates may have a copy of that.<br><br>Thanks for the reference, Paul.<br><br>Chris

Dear Chris,

It's a great book to have access to. One word of warning. Reading and understanding John Owen takes me, at least, a lot of time, effort, dictionary lookups, rereading, pondering, and trying to remember how the sentence began by the time I get to the end of it. You might want to allocate about a half-hour per page. But the effort is well worth it. He leaves no atom unturned.

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Reading and understanding John Owen takes me, at least, a lot of time, effort, dictionary lookups, rereading, pondering, and trying to remember how the sentence began by the time I get to the end of it. You might want to allocate about a half-hour per page. But the effort is well worth it. He leaves no atom unturned. </font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>I CONCUR. Although I find that the more owen works I read, the easier he becomes to understand. Though, that book is [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/heavy.gif" alt="heavy" title="heavy[/img]<br><br>Carlos

Well, this is my second post, and now I realize this is a Calvinist discussion board.<br><br>1Tim 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.<br> 5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;<br> 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.<br><br>That is not a very difficult passage of scripture. It means just what it says. But the Calvinist can't leave it alone because it destroys his man-made system of theology. Now you will be quick to tell me that if we take the verses literally, then all souls would have to be saved. That is not even close to being correct. I can leave the verse alone and believe it, and it is in harmony with the rest of the Bible. <br><br>Let me explain: There was a little island of the coast of Alaska. There was a community of Eskimos that lived there and they lived off of fishing, for the most part. They decided that they needed a doctor on the island, so they chose a young man that was intelligent and seemed to have promise. They made an agreement with him - they would pay for all his education if he would go to college and med school and return and provide medical care for all the villagers for at least 10 years after his graduation. The young man became a doctor and returned to fulfill his obligation. One day one of the villagers became quite ill. The man's neighbor went to the doctor to get him to go see the sick man. The doctor went to the man's house and knocked on the door. The sick man would not let him in the house. The neighbor pleaded with the man to let the doctor come in and help. The sick man refused. The man died of pneumonia. The doctor could have, and would have given the man antibiotics to defeat the infection.<br><br>The young man was the doctor of ALL the villagers. The young doctor was WILLING TO TREAT THEM ALL, and WANTED TO DO SO. But the sick man wanted nothing to do with him.<br><br>Leave the Bible alone. It means just what it says, and says just what it means. Leave it alone in 1 Tim 2 and leave it alone in 1 Tim 4.<br><br>1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.<br><br>Now don't waste your breath calling me an Arminian, a born again child of God cannot lose their salvation. Calvinism and Arminianism are ditches on either side of the narrow way. Believe what the Bible SAYS, not what you try and make it mean to fit your system of theology.<br>

Criley, you have made it quite clear on this and other threads that you are indeed an arminian who understands nothing of sin and salvation.<br><br>You are preaching a FALSE GOSPEL with ANOTHER CHRIST and you are also WRESTING SCRIPTURE UNTO YOUR OWN DESTRUCTION.<br><br>Criley , YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN.<br><br>howard

criley,<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]your breath calling me an Arminian, a born again child of God cannot lose their salvation</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>But you are one. You are just inconsistent. Many today hold same view that you do. I would describe them as A 4 point arminian who believes in eternal security, such as Dave Hunt, Norman Geisler, etc. <br><br>You say "It[Bible] means just what it says, and says just what it means".<br>Hence, what does Romans 9:6-24 mean sir? Instead of espousing your "free-will" theory, why don't you use your own motto above and apply it to the Romans passage? It's been my experience that those who say such things don't even apply it themselves. How about John 6:37-45? <br><br>Also, does the bible use word "ALL" as in "all without exception" in EVERYCASE? Is that my understanding of your position?<br><br>in Christ,<br>Carlos

Hello Carlos,<br><br>Well, according to your logic I guess I am a Campbellite, too. I don't believe water baptism has anything to do with salvation, but Campbellites believe in an eternal damnation. I guess I am Catholic, too, according to your logic. I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ was/is God manifest in the flesh and was born of a virgin. I mean, I don't hold to their other doctines, but..... Mormons believe that they should go into all the world and preach. I do too. Guess I am a Mormon, according to you guidelines.<br><br>Now, do you believe in the lake of fire? Are you a Campbellite, too? Do you believe in the virgin birth and the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ? So you are Catholic, too? Do you believe in preaching? So you are a Mormon, too?<br><br>You cite passages, when the only things that you know about them are what Calvinist teachers have told you. Romans 9.... who is Paul speaking of in the chapter? He is speaking of his KINSMEN ACCORDING to the FLESH.<br><br>Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,<br> 2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.<br> 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:<br> 4 Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises;<br><br><br>Now, lets go to the first verse you mention: 6 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:<br><br>Still dealing with Israel. Not talking about Gentiles. Not talking about the church. Talking about Israel.<br><br>Now if you can understand that, we can rationally discuss the passage. If you don't, there is not much sense continuing.<br><br>Same thing applies in John 6. Did your father eat manna in the wilderness? Those addressed in John 6... their fathers ate manna in the wilderness. One who fails to rightly divide the word of truth can't begin to understand those passages.<br><br>You have to conveniently neglect the context of the passages in order to support Calvinism. But then that is what every group that holds to their theology (instead of the Holy Bible) does.<br><br>Your question regarding "all" is non-sensical, to me. <br><br>Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

I am sure that Carlos will answer you appropriately, but until he does,<br><br>In understanding WHO Paul was referring to in Rom 9:1-3 one only needs to look to vs 6-18 for clarification. Paul was apparently afraid that his statement with respect to his sorrow and unceasing anguish might be interpreted as if he meant that God’s Word—His promise concerning Israel—had failed, or His purpose frustrated. So, Paul explains that although a marvelous promise had been made to Israel, that the promise was never meant to be realized in the entire nation, but of only true Israel—which BTW contains people (compare Rom 2:28-29). Not in ALL the descendent's of Abraham or of Israel was the covenant promise destined to be fulfilled, but only in the individual hearts and lives of those, who by God’s grace alone, would trust in Him.--read Hendriksen on Romans.<br><br>And WHERE may I ask is the HUMAN or NATIONAL merit of this PEOPLE or NATION? Was it given for HOW they behaved themselves? Well, you say no, Israel (people) sinned. Was it given because of HOW they WOULD behave in the future? Well, you say no again, for things really got bad and they were put into exile. Well what MERIT therefore earned this FAVOR of God. Well, "None," you say now, by God’s grace alone—So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy, (Rom 9:16), for God’s kingdom is “born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God” (John 1:13). Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. But, what about my Arminianism? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?