The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum I'm so confused!

Linda, where are you living in the USA.

I would say the majority of the OPC and PCA churches are solid, except for certain areas in the country. I don't know much about the Reformed denominations, except that the CRC is trending liberal.

On what data are you basing your conclusion that the majority of the OPC and PCA churches are solid????

Pilgrim

I echo your question.
Though I will say that there probably are individual Churches within those denominations that remain faithful to Scripture. However, they are the exception rather than the rule.

Tom

That's a given, Tom, that there are a few faithful churches within these denominations. However, the indisputable fact is that the "root" of both those denominations is rotten and thus the "tree" is destined to die, albeit a slow death. The PCA is the worse of the two but the OPC is still on track and in the race to apostasy. It's the same scenario that most always takes place; slow infiltration of heresy and unbiblical practice (worldliness) promoted by seminary professors, teachers and pastors and when the small minority of laity which God has given discernment and wisdom sounds the warning, they are ignored and/or silenced by the blind denominational loyalists and often kicked out by the power of the establishment.

I've recommended the following book before but it is certainly germane to mention it once again: Christianity and Neo-Liberalism: The Spiritual Crisis in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and Beyond by Dr. Paul M. Elliott.

The Presbytery I attend and the surrounding presbyteries. They are solid with their doctrine, and I would not say they are in the minority as you allude.

I realize you and some others see it differently, but I see both the PCA and OPC as strong denominations in their biblical teachings. Are their pockets and possibly one particular seminary that has allow for some bad teaching to enter in? Yes, though they may seem as trend-setters, they are really outliers in the two denominations.

1. Again, you haven't really provided the basis for your conclusion that the majority within the OPC and PCA are solid, as you put it.

2. I was a student at WTS in the late '70s and early '80s and I can sadly tell you that even back then there were seminary professors teaching serious heresy. It has since become much worse. There was a member here who also studied at RTS some years back and he related that there were some professors teaching Federal Vision at the school. Since then things have become much worse.

3. I am going to assume that you have read Paul Elliott's article on The Highway which deals directly with the PCA's continual decline? If not, you can read it here: The PCA's Apostasy: No More Lines in the Sand.

4. There is another member here who very recently went through a painful ordeal with the OPC, particularly one of their "carefully vetted pastors" and the SW Presbytery. Perhaps he will weigh in here and give you a brief rundown of what was being taught by this 'pastor' and the Presbytery's defense of him.

I could go on and on giving examples of the GA's of both denominations where heresy was deemed "acceptable" and consistent with the "Standards". These things are all a matter of record and not simply my personal opinion.

I have been a member of two PCA churches, both of which ignored the FV situation when it appeared in the Central Florida presbytery. One of the two has a staff member who embraces it, and who has introduced a lot of Eastern Orthodox tradition to the worship services. Asked about it, both pastors pretended it was a non-issue, out of their jurisdiction, saying it was limited to to a small number of distant presbyteries, and of no concern because those presbyteries can handle the problem. "They don't need outsiders jumping jurisdictional boundaries and hauling their teaching elders to 'illegal' trials outside of their own presbyteries."

Wherever there were those who did "jump jurisdictional boundaries," the concern was more about procedure and protecting turf than about a damnable heresy promoted by people who "win" the argument" by changing the definition of common theological terms without saying they've changed the definitions. Theological terms such as imputation, faith, means-of-grace, covenant, and even the definition of Christian.

While FV pretends to biblically address some of the inconsistencies of traditional Presbyterian doctrine (like baptizing infants - admitting them into the visible church as members - yet keeping them from the Lord's Table, not as a matter of discipline, but of "protection from taking the Supper unworthily" until they are able to articulate faith in Christ in an adult manner; or saying the New Testament interprets the Old while bringing the Old into the New with "deduction by good and necessary consequence" which creates confusion or at very least lack of clarity concerning church membership in both the visible and invisible Church, and concerning the Sacraments Ordinances of baptism and the Lord's Supper; and claiming the Regulative Principle of Worship while violating it in common practice), it is essentially a call back to Rome! Yet they can "support" their positions using the Westminster Confession of Faith as well as the time-honored practices of Protestant orthodoxy going all the way back to the Reformation.

Because of the way the courts of the denomination work, several "illegal jumps over jurisdictional boundaries" had to occur to even get FV to the floor of the General Assembly for consideration even to appoint a committee just to study it. The committee being composed of seminary-trained "teaching" elders, of course, because "mere ruling elders" wouldn't understand it (another common Presbyterian inconsistency in my opinion). So it continues and grows, even in the PCA's only denomination-owned seminary.

It's seen as being "beyond the understanding" of mere, untrained ordinary lay folk, and that's just how both of the PCA churches I served in treated it. It was like, "leave the theological debate to the professionals and don't concern yourself with such things." That lack of respect for the people they supposedly serve is one of the professional clergy's greatest failings. But when Eastern Orthodox Tradition made it's way into the worship services at my last PCA church, I determined then to look for a new church - outside that denomination.

-R

Pilgrim
I am not a Presbyterian, however if the OPC and PCA is like many other denominations. Perhaps John is referring to their statement of faith?
Unfortunately, when my wife and I first came to live in the city we now live; we found several local Churches that had statements of faith that we could live with. However after attending those Churches for a few Sundays, we soon found out that their statements of faith meant very little to them.
Out of concern about this, in one case I interviewed their pastor, telling him my main concern. He proceeded to tell me in no uncertain terms, that what they teach and who they support is definitely in keeping with their statement of faith.
Needless to say, that was the last Sunday we attended there.

Tom

The PCUSA still retains the Westminster Standards as official documents of faith. The RCA and CRC continue to confess that the Three Forms of Unity (Belgic Confession, Heidelberg Catechism and Canons of Dordt) are their official statements of faith, etc., etc. Simply saying, "We are a confessional church" is meaningless since what a church actually preaches, teaches and practices is the true evidence of where a church stands.

Let me suggest that if one takes just a little time to compare politics with the "church" today the similarities are frightening.

John C mentioned so I would think that their Statement of Faith (SOF) would likely point to the Westminster Confession of Faith. However, even Federal Visionists identify with the WCF. They just change the meaning of certain terms and then they blend in. That is what makes them so dangerous. It is hard to distinguish them by their SOF.

Right you are.
In my ignorance back when my wife and I were looking for a Church, we went to a CRC Church.
That is until the words ""Hour of Power" kept creeping up, that Church was a huge supporter of that particular heretical ministry.
If you are not familiar with "hour of Power", or is Robert Schuller's ministry at the Christal Cathedral.
Apparently they are part of the CRC.

I am quite familiar with Robert Schuller.

To the best of my knowledge, the Crystal Cathedral went defunct and closed a few years ago.

I had heard a few things sinse Robert Schuller wasn't at the helm anymore.
I had even heard rumours that the Roman Catholic Church was somehow involved. But those were just rumours.

John C, I don't see this or any denomination including the OPC or the PCA being solid at all. We know that the denominations and the seminaries have been corrupted, probably 95% of the Churches today are not Churches at all. We used to go to an OPC Church that was I believe was called a Missionary Church. We got great preaching for a year and a half. Than they brought in a full time statism pastor, he had to preach there a year before he could become a pastor. I noticed right off the bat that he was preaching a form of Federal Vision. He was preaching Baptism regeneration and other heresies in this little 20 people church or so. He asked me early on to go to breakfast with him and, so one morning we went and he proceeded to tell me that I need to have a "high" view of churches, I than told him I did and he proceeded to tell me of “all” churches even a catholic church which is no church at all!! So the next week I prayed about this and I asked him to repent of this and he wouldn't. The elders lived out of town so I contacted one of the elders and told him what this guy was preaching and told me at breakfast and asked him to go with me on a Matthew 18 case. The first elder said that they "vetted" him and he would have never told me these things. So I went to the second elder, and remember these elders take an oath to God to be a watchman over the sheep amongst other things, he told me much of the same and there was only more or less pure churches and I told this Elder that they are either true churches that preach the gospel of God's word or false gospel churches! So I contacted the Session head and he was telling me the same type of things. Every one of these 3 elders twisted what I said to them and tried to make me out to be a troublemaker. I even sent 2 emails showing that I told this pastor he was wrong about going to false churches and even a catholic church, he replied to 1. And they would not go with me to confront this so called pastor preaching heresy. I told him to take my wife and I off the rolls or I would take the issue to the Presbytery and the General Assembly. Needless to say within a month or so they took us off the rolls. I got a call from a friend at that church who calls once in a while and he told me this so called pastor had quit the OPC and wants to start a free will type church right before the year was up! We would love to go to church where we live now but they are all semi-pelagian churches or other false gospel churches. So where would the community of believers in our town go since there are no true gospel churches here?