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Re: Any other reformed Baptist Systematic Theologies? [Re: JesusFan] #53088
Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:43 PM
Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:43 PM
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Originally Posted By: JesusFan
They would deny that God imputes the rightiousness of Christ towards us based upon Him dieing as keeping the Law fully, as asthe covenant keeper or something?

Since you have identified yourself as a "tolerant Calvinist", then why waste your time asking about Federal Vision, since by your view, those who embrace this view are Christians, albeit confused. According to your "tolerant Calvinism", Paul was in error when he wrote that justification is by grace ALONE and not works, which is what Arminians, semi-Pelagians, Roman Catholics, sects and in fact every other religion in the world other than biblical Calvinism. Further, you reject the teaching of all the Reformed confessions, catechisms and councils in regard to the doctrine of soteriology and specifically justification, do you not? OR, perhaps you reject "The Law of non-Contradiction" (something cannot be and not be at the same time)?


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Re: Any other reformed Baptist Systematic Theologies? [Re: Pilgrim] #53089
Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:49 PM
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I do NOT accept the viewpoints of Wright or his fellow supporters, and am just saying that I do see more than just calvinist/reformed as being saved by the grace of God, I see even Catholics saved despite their heresy, and would ahve them come out of their church once saved, and would see the Lord saving others in various churches despite theology, and commanding them to go to a church teaching correct doctrines....

To me, the re are orthodox neliefs, held by those holding the Confessions, and also those such as a John Macarthur , and others in calvinistic Baptist churches, whop would hold to the reformed view on sotierology, and yet not hold to all Covenant theology proper!

I am in the learning process still, as went from Charasmatic/pentacostal, to baptist, and now into more reformed theology!

Last edited by JesusFan; Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:54 PM.
Re: Any other reformed Baptist Systematic Theologies? [Re: JesusFan] #53092
Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:30 PM
Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:30 PM
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So what's wrong with NPP and FV, which you said you knew basically nothing about and not include those who hold to their views who do hold to doctrines which you deem being "orthodox beliefs"?

Questions:

1. Do you believe that God loves all men without discrimination?

2. Do you believe that is God's sincere desire to save all men without exception?

3. Do you believe that the Lord Christ died for all men in some manner without exception?

4. Do you believe that a sinner can be saved by grace+works, which is what all non-Reformed religions hold to be true?


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Re: Any other reformed Baptist Systematic Theologies? [Re: Pilgrim] #53093
Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:19 AM
Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:19 AM
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Will attempt to answer your questions here!

1. I believe that God loves his own Covenant people with an everlasting love,and God was said to hav eloved Osaac, but hate Rsau, correct?

2.No, rather that God dtermined that in the death of Jesus there would be an atonemnet provided for His elect , as death of Jesus was the payment in full for all sins pf those persons that God chose to receive Hid salvation.

3.Jesus death was sufficient to have accomplished the salvation of all sinners, but ONLY is applied towards those whom God chose to be His elect in Christ.

4.No, salvationd from start to finish os thework of the Lord, Romans 8, and do see that faith alone saves me, but that faith when real and active will produce good works/fruit to give evidence of now being a Christian!

Re: Any other reformed Baptist Systematic Theologies? [Re: JesusFan] #53096
Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:03 PM
Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: JesusFan
Will attempt to answer your questions here!

4.No, salvationd from start to finish os thework of the Lord, Romans 8, and do see that faith alone saves me, but that faith when real and active will produce good works/fruit to give evidence of now being a Christian!

nope "that faith alone saves me,...". Sinners are saved BY grace (alone) through faith. Faith in and of itself is of no value whatsoever. There are many who have "believed" but are yet dead in their sins (cf. Jh 2:23-25; 6:1ff).

I love how Calvin explains this truth, i.e., faith has no salvific value. Paraphrased: Christ is like a pot of gold and faith is like the hand which grasps hold of that pot. What is it that makes that person rich? It is not the grasping for one can grasp a multitude of things which have no value. So, the value is in the gold itself. Thus faith is but the instrumentality which grasps onto Christ who is the richness of grace."

You would do well to read Joel Beeke's article here: Justification by Faith Alone (The Relation of Faith to Justification).

All non-Reformed denominations, churches and individuals hold that one's personal faith is what saves, thus effectively making faith a work; grace+faith=justification. For an easy to understand presentation on this pernicious error you may read this: By Grace Alone?


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Re: Any other reformed Baptist Systematic Theologies? [Re: Pilgrim] #53100
Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:19 PM
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I must be not stating myself well here, but faith does not save me, its whom the faith is placed on, as HE saves me...

Last edited by JesusFan; Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:22 PM.
Re: Any other reformed Baptist Systematic Theologies? [Re: JesusFan] #53101
Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:47 PM
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Originally Posted By: JesusFan
I must be not stating myself well here, but faith does not save me, its whom the faith is placed on, as HE saves me...

The point is and has been that ALL non-Reformed churches and organizations ALL teach that it is one's own faith that saves. Without "me" believing, despite all that God has done on my behalf, I cannot be saved. As Billy Graham unashamedly said and wrote, "God has done all he can do to save you... Now, it's up to you!" Ask any non-Reformed person why he/she is saved and not his/her neighbor and invariably, the answer will be, "Because I chose to believe/ask Jesus into my heart/read the prayer on the back of the card/went forward at some crusade or revival meeting, etc., etc., ad nauseam. Their "faith and assurance" is grounded upon their "faith". Since God loves everybody and Christ died for everybody and the Holy Spirit tries to bring everybody that which differs between those who are allegedly saved and those who aren't is what the professing Christian has DONE... "I chose to believe".

Yet, even though these churches teach/preach an idol for God, a false Jesus, a false Spirit, a false Gospel and countless other false teachings, you insist that many (most?) of those associated with those churches and teachings are to be considered "brothers and sisters in Christ"... which is the very definition of "Tolerant Calvinism"!


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Re: Any other reformed Baptist Systematic Theologies? [Re: Pilgrim] #53105
Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:47 PM
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I would rather state it as there can be really saved persons in any Christian church so called, but would be very much insisting that they come to the real understanding of the Gospel as per calvinism...

God saved me while I was in no church background, and I went from AOG/Free Church/ To now Baptist, and moved from a westley viewpoint to now reformed on salvation proper, so could there not being many like me still in the middle of their transformation into holding calvinistic teachings now?

Re: Any other reformed Baptist Systematic Theologies? [Re: JesusFan] #53107
Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:11 PM
Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:11 PM
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Originally Posted By: JesusFan
I would rather state it as there can be really saved persons in any Christian church so called, but would be very much insisting that they come to the real understanding of the Gospel as per calvinism...

God saved me while I was in no church background, and I went from AOG/Free Church/ To now Baptist, and moved from a westley viewpoint to now reformed on salvation proper, so could there not being many like me still in the middle of their transformation into holding calvinistic teachings now?

Must I repeat myself yet again? HOW can anyone who sits under false teaching and a false gospel be saved? Salvation ONLY comes from hearing, embracing, loving the truth via the saving work of the Holy Spirit who ONLY works in and through the TRUTH. As Paul clearly states in Romans 1:16, "I am not ashamed of THE Gospel, for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." Notice the correlation between THE Gospel, the power of it (Spirit's inner working) and belief. A false gospel can only produce a false faith and a false faith can only produce a false salvation!!

I was an Atheist for 28 years. I was persuaded, looking back, by the Spirit of God, to begin reading the Bible and it was through that reading of it that the Spirit brought a conviction of sin upon me and opened my eyes to the beauty of Christ and my need of His righteousness in order to be reconciled to God and receive the remission of my sins. I then began to attend a local church that was your typical "evanjellycal" variety. The pastor was a very kind and loving man. He was very sincere in all that he preached and taught. However, as I continued to devour Scripture it became quickly apparent that what my pastor was teaching and what I was reading in Scripture were at variance. Within a short time, the Lord led me to a wonderful Christian bookstore where I purchased books written by many of the notable Puritans and modern writers, e.g., Jonathan Edwards works, the 16 vol. set of John Owen, Berkhof's Systematic Theology, John Flavel, etc. What became clear is that what I believed had a name... Calvinism. I was the black sheep of the church and ridiculed by many. But the Lord sustained me and convinced me that I should be formally educated, which I did; beyond my own intelligence. So yes, one can be saved outside of a false church but not because of the teachings of a false church.

Oh, and I probably already mentioned this before (memory loss does come with old age), but I will do so again. One is not saved by believing right doctrine. But one is not saved without right doctrine. There are myriad members of Calvinistic churches who believe Calvinism is biblical and some can articulate it near perfectly. Yet, they are still dead in their sins and in need of salvation in Christ.


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Re: Any other reformed Baptist Systematic Theologies? [Re: JesusFan] #53108
Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:59 AM
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It helps me to know that faith is also the gift of God, not something I can produce or conjure up from within my own corrupt, fallen nature.

"My" faith is a result of regeneration. I have faith only because God gave me faith.

I did not know that faith was from God until much later on in my life, but praise His name, God's grace doesn't depend on my proper understanding of the doctrine. Grace and faith are given to the elect purely on the basis of God's sovereign choice.

Because regeneration precedes faith (because only regeneration can produce faith to believe), salvation is by grace alone, period.

Re: Any other reformed Baptist Systematic Theologies? [Re: Robin] #53109
Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:23 AM
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Originally Posted By: Robin
It helps me to know that faith is also the gift of God, not something I can produce or conjure up from within my own corrupt, fallen nature.

This is certainly true. However, there are many who have been taught that faith is a gift of God and of course, Paul couldn't be any clearer in Ephesians 2:8-10 which also explains that true faith will/must produce good works. But add to the truth and redefine the nature of faith by making faith something that God gives but it is man's free-will choice to either exercise it by believing or not. The end result is always the same... God has done his part (grace) and man must do his part (believe).

Even though these things were thoroughly discussed over a period of 18 months in 1618-19 at the Synod of Dordt and the unanimous vote to reject the Remonstrants who objected to Sola Gratia by reducing God to being dependent upon man and giving man the final power and right to effect salvation for himself, and wrote details objections to their pernicious errors (which are inherent within the heart and mind of every natural man), the same errors exist today WITHIN THE CHURCH. Of course, they are sometimes cleverly disguised by redefining the historic terms of such issues, but they are the same lies of the Evil One. And it should not be that surprising that so many are carried away by these false teachings for God has prophesied and Christ repeated that prophesy that the world would get worse and worse and the Church would fall away by adopting the world's philosophies and practices. And, it would become so serious that only the return of Christ would prevent even the elect from being deceived.

So, one of the major deceits today is "toleration" by taking the truth of God and reducing it down to a 'lowest common denominator theology', thus making the Church a "big tent" where nearly everyone is welcome and deemed Christian. The similarities between the Church and politics is frightening if one thinks about it. Power grabbing men in politics and in the Church who lie and cheat and who have little true interest in serving the people around them. Political correctness, individual freedom, toleration of others views and lifestyles, etc., all exist in both spheres today. Totally antithetical views not only exist within denominations but they are even officially allowed and claimed to be compatible with the denominations standards.

Yes, faith is the gift of God which is the FRUIT of regeneration wherein a new spiritual nature is recreated which is predisposed to love God, to esteem the law of God, that recognizes and rejects all manner of sin within and without, that knows and loves the Lord Christ as LORD and Redeemer and to whom one is irresistibly and infallibly drawn and united to by that faith. Does man do the believing? Unquestionably so. But those to whom the Spirit comes and the new birth is given, their believing is no less natural than was their hatred of God and life of sin beforehand. They are virtually dragged into the kingdom by their new God-given nature and the Spirit's power and most willingly.

SALVATION IS OF THE LORD! (Jonah 2:9)


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Re: Any other reformed Baptist Systematic Theologies? [Re: Pilgrim] #53113
Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:27 PM
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I would just suggest that the Holy Spirit enables those whom God has elected those be saved in Christ to be so enabled to lnopw and discern what the real Gospel is, even when it is taught wrongly, as ut is the same scripture that He grantsto us awareness of what the rel meaning intended is, and we are born again by the real Gospel. So are being taught arminian/semi pel. but he gives to them real Gospel in those same scrptures in order to save them.

Once saved, now needs to confirm to the real teaching of the scriptures, and find a true bible belieivng church.

That was my own experience, and believemany others have been saved in same route!

Re: Any other reformed Baptist Systematic Theologies? [Re: Robin] #53114
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Many christians falsely hold to that faith provides the regenration, but that is due to them misunderstandimg that faith comes from God, towards those whom He already has regnerated!

Re: Any other reformed Baptist Systematic Theologies? [Re: JesusFan] #53116
Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:15 PM
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Originally Posted By: JesusFan
I would just suggest that the Holy Spirit enables those whom God has elected those be saved in Christ to be so enabled to lnopw and discern what the real Gospel is, even when it is taught wrongly, as ut is the same scripture that He grantsto us awareness of what the rel meaning intended is, and we are born again by the real Gospel. So are being taught arminian/semi pel. but he gives to them real Gospel in those same scrptures in order to save them.

That's nonsense (no sense) that a sinner, who is dead in sins can find the true Gospel in a false gospel. And secondly, again the Holy Spirit will NOT nor He cannot work through lies to call the elect to faith in Christ. It is not a matter of quoting Scripture and wrongly interpreting it. All the false churches, sects and many cults use the Bible in their evangelism. Where in Scripture can you find even one example where the inspired writers were tolerant of those who either taught or heard a false gospel and then wrote that these false gospels were partially correct and instructed their readers how to sift the truth out of those damnable errors?

Essentially, you are denying the doctrine of Total Depravity. How, you ask? Because a sinner must FIRST be regenerated by the Spirit before they are able to even comprehend the truth, never mind seek it. John 3 and other passages are perspicuous in teaching that you must be born again (regenerated) before you can enter the kingdom of God. But even more so, a sinner cannot even "see" the kingdom of God unless they are born again. The evidence of regeneration is first and foremost a deep sense of conviction of sin. Rarely in the churches in our day will you ever hear preaching that emphasizes the sinfulness, the wickedness, the evil of the human heart. Such preaching seeks to remove any and all self-reliance and self-esteem. Without such preaching/teaching NO ONE will ever flee to Christ and beg God for mercy.


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Re: Any other reformed Baptist Systematic Theologies? [Re: JesusFan] #53117
Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: JesusFan
Many christians falsely hold to that faith provides the regenration, but that is due to them misunderstandimg that faith comes from God, towards those whom He already has regnerated!

Again, nonsense!! IF preachers would preach sermons on the natural condition of man, most churches would be empty. Read the Scriptures and note the teaching of the Lord Christ, who is the embodiment of truth. And read how many believed upon Him who had much knowledge of the Old Testament. If the Lord Christ was judged by popular standards on success in evangelism, He would be fired immediately. The same goes for the Apostles, who likewise preached and taught the truth of God and salvation. The vast majority of their hearers rejected them and even did them violence. It is God's eternal purpose to save a REMNANT out of Adam's fallen race.

Take special note of every man or woman who was given a true knowledge of God, e.g., Isaiah, Nebuchadnezzer, David, the close disciples of Christ, Paul, et al. In every case, they were smitten with both their wretchedness and God's/Christ's holiness. They fell on their faces and cried out to God to depart from them. Is that the experience of all these people you deem Christians who are simply lacking in proper teaching?

Have you ever read the sermons of men such as Ralph Erskin?
- https://www.the-highway.com/articleMar16.html
- https://www.the-highway.com/articleApr16.html
- https://www.the-highway.com/articleMay16.html

Did you take the time to read J.I. Packer's article I linked for you?
- The Old Gospel and the New


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