The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Tolerant Calvinism

The following short video, although many agreed (such as myself) with James White; it also raised a few eye brows in the Reformed community. Among the accusations it caused was that it proves James White is a "tolerant Calvinist."
I find these accusation laughable at best.
What are your thoughts?
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Similarly, when RC Sproul was asked if he believed that Arminians are saved. When he did not answer an outright no, he received similar criticism. There is a YouTube video to this.

Tom

1. Re: James White... I didn't hear him espouse what could be considered "Tolerant Calvinism". I have no idea where he actually stands on the issue. What I did here him say is that there are these "TR" people who are lacking grace towards others. So, on the basis of that short video, it would be unwarranted of accusing White of being a Tolerant Calvinist.

2. R.C. Sproul, Sr... Now his situation is entirely different. Years ago, he stood with his spiritual father, his mentor John Gerstner and agreed that the vast majority of Arminians (rare in our day) and semi-Pelagians are not truly converted. However, as time passed he changed his mind and wrote that the opposite was the case, thus taking the position of tolerant Calvinism, much to the disappointment of many. Now, there are extremists like those in the "Outside the Camp" sect of Mark Carpenter, and some who are similar but not quite as extreme who hold not only are non-Calvinists are unsaved, but those who believe that they are saved are not saved themselves. It is almost laughable to read the names of those who have made Carpenter's "Hall of Shame", among whom are some of the greatest theological minds and godly men to ever walk on the face of this earth. The lesser extremists would say that as long as these "Tolerant Calvinists" have breath, there is still hope they will repent of this sin and avoid damnation.

From appearances, Tolerant Calvinism has made significant inroads into the visible church, at least in the western hemisphere. The result of course is all too obvious when one sees what goes on in the modern church, particularly in the matter or worship. The greatest mission field in our day, IMO, is the churches of the United States and Canada.

I do not see that as being heresy, but as a discussion within the Calvinistic bethren over what constitites the essential Gospel that saves us as sinners!

Personally I believe that while there are Arminians that are saved, if they genuinely believe what their theology says in their heart of hearts, then they are still dead in their trespasses and sins.

When I became a Christian all I knew is I was a sinner and needed saving and that the only way to the Father was through Jesus. My understanding of all the particulars, was not there until much later.

Tolm

This is a topic that I have been playing in my mind for several years, and one of the reasons that I have a difficult time with it is because as I recall my conversion in 1981, I'm not sure that the terminology of God's sovereign grace was mentioned to me, or me being absolutely dead in my sins with no ability to choose Him for my salvation,.. I did know that I was a sinner, and without the forgiveness of my sins that can only be found in Christ I was destined for eternal punishment. As I begin to study more, I came across the doctrines of grace,.. so I was saved under the knowledge of Christ being my only hope, but not with a grasp of the doctrine that denies His monergistic work today known as Arminism,.. so its something that I know, that if one holds to this doctrine as given at the Synod in 1618-19, then they are indeed teaching a different Christ that cannot save.

The problem to me though is that even those who seem to teach another gospel a they would in the end come thru the same grace as we all did in in orderr to be saved, as i had not read any theology on calvinism until after was saved, and God did not askme to articulate to Him the TULIP in order to be saved! Once i was saved, and I would suspect all of us here, then was able to survey and review the different Christian materials before settling on Calvinism!

What? Teach another Gospel and be saved ...same grace..in the end, certainly not what Paul declared, when he said if they teach another Gospel let them be eternally cursed of God. Even If I myself teach another Gospel, or an angel does such may we be anathama, he cries in anger.

When Scripture declares one is justified by faith, in concludes the decision he makes has nothing to do with acceptance before God. Decisionism is an effort by man, and even thinking his decision has anything to do with his salvation, shows he is not relying on Christ alone. Unregenerate men, cannot comprehend that God alone must do the work of saving them, as they express it in words whch are not biblical, such as, "when i came to Christ, or when I trusted in Christ, at the point in my life when i saw, that I needed such and such." are all expressions which play up the dead, unregenerate soul as having some ability, by somehow aiding in his salvation. Jesus Fan...do you believe you had anything to do with your salvation?

Amen! Mr. Smith...

The false gospel which the majority are hearing in days past and continue to hear in our day has no ability to convict of sin for it rarely if ever includes the depth of man's depravity which is revealed in the holy law of God. Saying you are a sinner is a far cry from what the Holy Spirit brings upon a sinner's soul. All of God's elect come by way of heart-felt, Spirit-wrought conviction. At the same time, the Spirit reveals to the elect sinner the inexorable holiness of God. When those two truths are impressed upon a person's mind and heart, it kills all self-righteousness and self-reliance. A cursory reading of the Scriptures will illustrate how those who are saved by God are effected. Some salient examples are:

Mephibosheth
Isaiah
The Publican
Peter
At Pentecost
Paul
Those who have come to Christ through true conviction and a heart-felt faith all experience these things from one degree to another. And, as the children of God grow in grace through the Spirit's indwelling, the realization of how sinful they are and how glorious in holiness God is increases throughout their lives. The fear of God dominates their lives (2Cor7:1; Eph 5:21). This is not a fear of dread of condemnation, but rather a reverential fear knowing the one true God. The modern gospel has no place for any of these things and thus as Mr. Smith rightly pointed out, such as who bring another Gospel and those who believe another gospel are ANATHEMA... not saved!

There are a number of excellent articles on The Highway in the "The Beginning " section and also "Calvinism and the Reformed Faith > Evangelism" section that address the modern gospel which does not and cannot save anyone. I say again, no one is saved because they assent to right doctrine, but no one is saved without right doctrine. The modern gospel is anemic and does not declare who the God of the Bible is, nor the Fall and its consequences, nor the necessity of perfect righteousness, nor the efficacy of Christ's atoning work, nor does it bring the law to bear upon sinners, etc., etc., ad nauseam. There is only ONE Gospel and the Spirit of Righteousness works only through that one Gospel to bring God's people to Christ for the remission of their sins and reconciliation with God. A false gospel, is the lie of Satan and those who embrace it are his disciples, not of the Lord's Christ.

So you would be stating by that that all Christians who claim to be saved, but do not hold to calvinsm theology, really not, but deluded by satan?

That would seem to place theology understanding ahead of saved by grace alone faith alone!

Would you agree with this author?

http://www.kurthutchison.com/tolerantcalvinism.html

Jesusfan, you are not dealing with the Scriptures at all. You may not like it but this is what Scripture teaches. So yes, many who call themselves Christians are not. They might even hold offices in the church, and say that they agree with right doctrine but they do not have within themselves, a new heart. They are still dead in their sins. Jesus Himself tells us this in Matthew 7

"13 Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby. 14 For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leadeth unto life, and few are they that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheepÕs clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves. 16 By their fruits ye shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but the corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

You call yourself "Jesusfan" Why? Have you no fear of God before you? You had better consider your own soul and listen to what the Lord Jesus Christ says in the above quote. Will you be one of those to whom Christ says " depart from me, ye that work iniquity"? Or will you fear God and repent of your sins. Your screen name tells me that you do not fear God but have a rather buddy buddy approach to the thrice holy God. Is that how Isaiah addressed God in Isaiah six? You astound me.

Pilgrim
Researching this issue a little more, I would conclude that James White as well as most of the Theologians that I respect, would wholeheartedly agree with Sproul on this issue. In fact, unless I misunderstand him, even CH Spurgeon would say similar things. Similar things could be said about Whitefield for believing John Wesley was a genuine Christian.
Although Outside the Camp takes a very hardline stance on this, especially with their "Wall of Shame." It appears that they are not the only ones who take a similar stand. Some state that to be a "tolerant Calvinist" is an oxymoron and proves that they really do not understand soteriology and therefore there is reason to doubt their salvation. Others say that while it may not necessarily mean the person is not saved it does mean that they are not consistent with their own theology.

Tom

"That would seem to place
theology understanding
ahead of
saved by grace alone
faith alone!"

Theological awareness is but what "Scripture teaches as correct." By grace alone, through faith alone, is a clear theological concept, Does one need to have a theological understanding of this? How can one be saved without an understanding of the basic teaching of salvation. This is what you seem to be advocating. "Anything about Jesus, just believe it, and be saved." This is perhaps not the case, but in practical application, this is what it amounts to. So is proper understanding important?

Absolutely, or he is just inventing anything with the "name of Jesus" attached to it.

Does one have to understand grace? Of course, He has no grace, grace is favour, he has no reason to be favoured, it is unmerited favour, or what he does not deserve, it is demerited favor, he gets the opposite of what he deserves, which is God's wrath. Grace is Sovereign, in that the one, who dispenses it decides who gets His favour, since by nature all men hate Him. Grace is distinguishing in that it leaves one to perish, and another for no reason (but God) is chosen to eternal life. Scripture says, "whose heart the Lord opened so she attended to what she heard" "As many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Grace has nothing to do with human ability or as an addition to what sinners do, in order to make it work. The major part of the Christian world does not believe this at all, but that grace is God's assisting hand to help one believe.

Tom,

Unfortunately, you haven't grasped my position which is what the Synod of Dordt concluded which was attended by all the various Calvinistic denominations of that day. The Puritans also held to the same view. The extreme view, which I have already mentioned in this discussion is probably promoted most by Marc Carpenter on his "Outside the Camp" website. That is NOT my position and I repudiate all that he promotes.

My position, which is consistent with the historic Reformed churches has nothing to do with those who hold to tolerant Calvinism. Those who are truly saved and who hold theologically to biblical Calvinism but adhere to Tolerant Calvinism I believe are inconsistent and woefully wrong and do immeasurable damage to the Church of Christ. You can add Charles Hodge to that list of those you mentioned as well.

For the very last time, I will briefly state my position.... Those who believe a false gospel, embrace another Jesus, another Spirit are not saved. Salvation comes through hearing the TRUTH. God does not and cannot work through falsehood, which the Devil is the author, the "father of lies". In my most recent and somewhat lengthy reply above, I set forth several passages of Scripture, which I have likewise done throughout this discussion to show that there is but ONE true Gospel, which all those whom you respect and attempt to use to justify your tolerant calvinism, agree that this is true. Jesus said that MANY will come to Him on the last day and even call Him "Lord, Lord" but were not His. Only a remnant will be saved because God is the author of salvation (Jonah 2:9) and not the free-will decision of God-hating sinners. Believing Calvinism intellectually has no power to save. Believing semi-Pelagianism, Arminianism, or any other false religion has no power to save. God ONLY uses His inspired, infallible Word as the means to call the elect to repentance and faith. Giving assent to certain propositional truths does not save. Reading a prayer on the back of a tract does not save. Going forward at some revival meeting does not save. Asking Jesus into your heart does not save......... Salvation is of the Lord by the sovereign regenerating work of the Holy Spirit through the true Gospel, enlightening the mind, enlivening the affections and freeing the will, convicting of sin and creating faith in the heart. The issue is not Predestination, although that certainly has a bearing on the matter, but rather it is a matter of Justification. On that I shall never be moved, D.v.

So, if you think I am in error, then open the Scriptures and show me the truth. Demonstrate that all those at the Synod of Dordt were wrong. Prove that most all the Puritans were wrong. Unless and until you can do that from Scripture, I stand with Martin Luther:

Judge not. lest ye be judged, and I do know whosaved me as a sinner, and His name is Yeshua...

Both a Wesley and a Whitefield preached the same message to sinners, both used by the Lord, and both saw each other as saved Christians, but each viewed the other as wrong in crtain areas of their theology, correct?