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Re: Tolerant Calvinism [Re: Pilgrim] #53674
Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:19 PM
Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:19 PM
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Macomb Michigan
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what is the Gospel message that the Lord uses to save lost sinners, as it has to be able to be grasped by even a child!

Re: Tolerant Calvinism [Re: JesusFan] #53675
Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:56 PM
Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:56 PM
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What Whitefield did, Wesley did? We have biblical truth in front of us. I have really no idea what they preached but what I have read of them. without being offensive what does it matter? This is about us.

Scripture says this, when the initial work of the Spirit begans in a man, he causes the man to own his sin, he is convinced he is a sinner, not as some abstract idea learned in a book... he takes the posture of one who accepts what God says of him. John 16:6,7 He feels it, as Isaiah did, "woe is me, I am undone," as the man hitting himself in the chest, on the temple grounds, crying out "Oh God be propitious to me, the sinner." Luke 18:13. This personal loathing (not in degree) but in fact resides in all who are regenerate, and it stays with them until they are glorified. The great Paul had it, "Oh wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death." He felt the awful weight of his personal sin against God. Holy Spirit conviction makes one agree honesly from top to botton he is bruises, wounds, putrifying sores, as Isa l:6] From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

When God in mercy brings one to this place he is not far from the Kingdom of God, as the Lord Jesus Christ, he wants, hungers for, goes after, and to him "Christ is precious" as he believes with his heart upon the Lord.



Re: Tolerant Calvinism [Re: JesusFan] #53676
Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:00 PM
Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:00 PM
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Pilgrim Offline

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Re: Tolerant Calvinism [Re: Tom] #53678
Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:16 AM
Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:16 AM
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Lake Park, Georgia USA
Robin Offline

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No one is suggesting that in order to be truly saved, one must "pass a theology exam," demonstrating complete mastery of Calvinism.

The elect are brought to the truth and acted upon by the Spirit of God, who applies the finished work of Christ to their hearts, which eventually reaches their minds as they seek Him through His word.

At first the gospel is terrifying, as it should be. Before one is forgiven, adopted, justified, etc., one is condemned and terrified of what they need to be saved from (total depravity, guilt, the justice of a thrice-holy God who is unapproachable by sinful, fallen, depraved, guilty, filthy sinners).

The gospel is humbling and even more terrifying when one realizes that there is nothing that can be humanly done to wipe out the sinner's insurmountable debt, much less make him a better person. He is not only guilty, condemned, and doomed to be the object of God's holy wrath, but he is helpless to do anything about it on his own. Nothing he can do will earn him any merit at all, much less enough merit to pay his debt of sin. If he is to ever be forgiven and have any hope at all, it must be entirely by means outside of himself and his own efforts. There is nothing I can do to deserve His mercy. It must be unconditional, since I am totally depraved.

The gospel is bad news to sinners before it becomes good news to those who are regenerated with ability to believe it and stake their lives on it.

Only the regenerate believe, and cannot say no to Christ, even though the demands of the gospel are impossible ("who then can be saved?").

Suffice it to say that even if one doesn't understand all the theology, a true convert experiences the terror, the dread, the brokenness, and the humility of desperate need and helplessness - and then the gratitude, rest, trust, confidence, and ongoing humility, obedience, and thankfulness as the Spirit applies the gospel to their hearts.

Don't misunderstand "Calvinism is the gospel" as though all the elect somehow qualify by passing some sort of theology exam. Salvation is from God and in the heart long before it reaches the mind. But the truly elect will seek to understand the gospel, and most of us find our way to "the Reformed faith" on our own, from the Scriptures themselves.

Re: Tolerant Calvinism [Re: Robin] #53681
Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:10 PM
Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:10 PM
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Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Tom Offline OP
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Robin
There is nothing you wrote that I disagree with and I think it is safe to say that men like Spurgeon, Sproul, James White, etc..., would all agree. However, here is the rub, what you described was my understanding long before I even heard about the debate between Arminianism and Calvinism. I was even in an Arminian Church at the time. Even after an older Calvinist couple took my mom and I under their wing to try to teach us the doctrines of grace. Neither my mom or I really comprehended what they were trying to teach us. It was not until years later, that I really began to understand these doctrines and to be quite frank, although I hated them, I reluctantly embraced them because He is God and I am not. A few years later, as I was reading Romans 9 a light went on and I truly understood that my thinking was clouded by what the world teaches me (i.e. what was fair and what wasn't.) Now I understood my problem was not seeing clearly, because I was not seeing things through my sovereign God's eyes.

I have Arminian friends today that although I can not know their heart, I believe are Christians. We agree with each other that before we became believers, we were fallen filthy sinners. It is only because Christ's righteousness has been imputed to us that we are saved. We also agree with each other that we need to live a life in keeping with repentance.
When I talk to one particular friend, if I didn't know better I would think he was a Calvinist, but although he is not hostile to Calvinism, he disagrees with it on a number of points. In fact, the more I talk to him, the more inclined I am to think that he is just not being consistent with what he says he believes. Our last conversation, he said that he is neither an Arminian or a Calvinist, because he believes Scripture teaches both. I laughed at this, mainly because as I was in the process of embracing the doctrines of grace, I wrestled back and forth with Scriptures that seemed to teach both, but realizing this couldn't be the case.

Tom



Tom

Re: Tolerant Calvinism [Re: Robin] #53682
Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:44 AM
Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:44 AM
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NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

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Originally Posted by Robin
No one is suggesting that in order to be truly saved, one must "pass a theology exam," demonstrating complete mastery of Calvinism.

I totally agree. Unfortunately, there are some who seem to think that those who espouse the view I hold along with countless others throughout history this is necessary. hairout

You were doing so well until you wrote the following:

Originally Posted by Robin
The elect are brought to the truth and acted upon by the Spirit of God, who applies the finished work of Christ to their hearts, which eventually reaches their minds as they seek Him through His word.

Don't misunderstand "Calvinism is the gospel" as though all the elect somehow qualify by passing some sort of theology exam. Salvation is from God and in the heart long before it reaches the mind. But the truly elect will seek to understand the gospel, and most of us find our way to "the Reformed faith" on our own, from the Scriptures themselves.

First, I'll ask a question to make sure that I am understanding you correctly. grin Do you believe that a sinner is saved without the Gospel? This appears to be your position ala: "Salvation is from God and in the [i]heart long before it reaches the mind.[/i]"

Okay, I will now respond to what you wrote whether the answer to the above question is yes or not since it is more than probable that others have this view as well. This is totally contrary to Scripture which teaches that faith comes by HEARING and hearing by the Word of God;preached, taught and/or read (Rom 1:16, 10:8-17; 1Cor 1:18-24; Col 1:4-6; 1Thess 2:13; 2Thess 2:13,14; Jam 1:18-21; 1Pet 1:23-25). There is no one in Scripture that I have been able to find where a sinner is saved apart from Scripture being heard. Now, there are some who believe that Jeremiah and/or John the Baptist are two exceptions proposing that they were saved in the womb. However, the proof for that is quite weak at best. In regeneration, that sovereign and secret work of the Holy Spirit, the WHOLE man is renewed; intellect, affections/emotions, and will. Secondly, in every instance given in Scripture in regard to sinners being saved, it is via the Holy Spirit attending the preaching/teaching and/or reading of God's. The natural order in which the TRUTH of God in the Gospel travels is 1) Mind, 2) Affections, 3) Will. God doesn't bypass the intellect when He calls a sinner to salvation in Christ. In regeneration, the sinner is giving the ability to comprehend the things of God vs. his natural state which finds the truth of God foolishness and exchanges the truth for a lie. Secondly, these necessary truths of the Gospel effect the affections/emotion, for when comprehends the truth about one's true nature, that it is vile, corrupt, wicked, self-absorbed, and that every thought and imagination of the heart is evil continually, conviction of sin occurs. At the same moment, the comprehension of God's ineffable holiness brings humility of self and awe and reverence of God with an insatiable desire to worship HIm and obey all that He commands. Lastly, the will is effected, which should be obvious since the will, the ability to do something, does that which the intellect and/or affections demand. This all occurs in an instant but NOT apart from[i] the Word but [i]in conjunction with the Word.

Not one person who disagrees with my view that sinners are not and cannot be saved by believing a false gospel, a god of their imagination, another Jesus or another Spirit has offered a single response to even one thing I have written to support that view from Scripture nor logic nor reason. All that has been done in to repeat their view that those who embrace Arminianism, semi-Pelagianism (which would of course include Roman Catholics), or any other sect are saved. Now, there is yet another element to what I and history Reformed Theology deem to be heresy is the element that the intellect/mind is unnecessary for salvation, for God the Spirit works directly with a sinner's heart. So, again, can anyone provide any biblical support for this view if that is what you believe? Can anyone provide any biblical support to show that a sinner is saved by believing a false gospel, another Jesus, another Spirit and/or a false God? Can anyone show from Scripture that God has called His elect to faith through a lie?

I repeat..... No one is saved because they believe right doctrine, but no one is saved without right doctrine. It is the TRUTH that sets a sinner free. And that truth is not to be found in a false gospel nor in a 10 second sound byte.


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Re: Tolerant Calvinism [Re: Tom] #53683
Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:58 AM
Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:58 AM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,004
Lake Park, Georgia USA
Robin Offline

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We are agreed that no one is saved without the gospel! The light of nature is only sufficient to condemn the soul, but only the light of the gospel can save anyone.

I'm only saying that complete and full intellectual understanding of the gospel comes later and may not always happen before regeneration/justification/adoption.

Re: Tolerant Calvinism [Re: Tom] #53685
Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:17 AM
Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:17 AM
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About half od the members of my Baptist church were saved out of Rome by God while there were in there still, and none of them were hearing the right Gospel every Sunday, but the Holy Spirit still was able to work thru that to save out from there the elect and chosen of God!

Re: Tolerant Calvinism [Re: Tom] #53686
Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:19 AM
Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:19 AM
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Do Arminians, and I have realized that there are really few classic ones in churches, would hold to Jesus death for them as only means by which God can save them, and that his resurrection is also required, correct?

Re: Tolerant Calvinism [Re: Robin] #53687
Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:15 AM
Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:15 AM
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Pilgrim Offline

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Originally Posted by Robin
We are agreed that no one is saved without the gospel! The light of nature is only sufficient to condemn the soul, but only the light of the gospel can save anyone.

I'm only saying that complete and full intellectual understanding of the gospel comes later and may not always happen before regeneration/justification/adoption.

Thanks for the clarification. We are in full agreement on that matter. It is not necessary that a sinner memorize Berkhof's Systematic Theology in order TO BE saved. However, the salient issue and the one which is fundamental for it is the basis of justification...

1) Is the true, one and only Gospel the only gospel that saves? Or, as is being promoted here and by most all "Tolerant Calvinists", false gospels can be believed and bring salvation?

2) Does the Holy Spirit of God, Who works in and through the Gospel, bringing understanding to the mind, conviction of sin and revealing the person of work of the Lord Christ, use a false gospel to do that?

3) And there is the issue of what the Gospel is. Is the Gospel that saves a 10-second sound byte that has 3 or 4 propositional statements to which a person simply needs to give an intellectual assent? Or, is the Gospel an informative message that declares the person and nature of God and His eternal plan to save a people for Himself, of the Fall and it's horrible effects upon the entire human race, i.e. of the inheritance of a corrupt nature and the imputation of guilt and that all men are totally incapable of saving themselves and in fact have no desire to do so unless God grants them mercy and sends the Spirit to give them a new nature, of the great work of atonement which paid for all the sins for all those whom the Father chose to eternal life and that the perfect righteousness which all men are required to possess has been merited by Christ and which is imputed to all who cast themselves upon Christ in repentance and faith, and lastly of the terrifying judgement which is to come?

All these things have been previously set forth by me and others here throughout this discussion. But again, NONE have brought anything to the discussion except to state their view, as if repeating it enough times will make it true, which many times is nothing more than a reciting of their experience and/or the experience of others. NONE have interacted with the biblical passages I have given, nor given a reasonable, logical argument built upon Scripture to make their case. We are still waiting for someone to do this to both refute our view and to prove their view. [Linked Image]


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Re: Tolerant Calvinism [Re: Pilgrim] #53689
Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:08 PM
Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:08 PM
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Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Tom Offline OP
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Pilgrim
I can not speak for Robin, but I thought he did a good job at answering your questions in his first post and his clarification.
Robin if I am misunderstanding you, please correct me.
In Robin's first post he showed the basics of what it is to be saved.
If this is not taught, it is a false Gospel.
I do not believe a false Gospel can save at all.
However, if what Robin said is taught despite other things, it is definately possible for one to be saved. If it isn't then I was not saved until I fully understood and embraced the doctrines of grace.
I will continue to speak out against Arminianism, and other forms of false Gospel; mainly because if they are fully understood and embraced, one would still be dead in their tresspasses and sins.
Tom

Re: Tolerant Calvinism [Re: Pilgrim] #53690
Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:47 PM
Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:47 PM
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The Gospel message is that I am a sinner, Jesus died for sinners such as me, and by receiving Him thru faith God will save me, correct?

The Holy Spirit convicted me that I was a sinner, was unable to do anything to save myself, and He enabled me to be able to receive Jesus as Lord,

Once again, when the Lord saved me, and most that I personally know of being saved, we were not wondering if we were co operating with Him, if this was totally of the Lord, just knew that Jesus died for me and then, and that God had provided to us the means by which we were to be saved!

Last edited by JesusFan; Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:54 PM.
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