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#55141 Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:57 AM
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Tom Offline OP
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I am sure many of you have heard of Joni Eriksson Tada. She is a quadriplegic, who quite frankly when I am tempted to feel sorry for myself when my health is not good, wakes me up so I cling to the cross.
She has been a main speaker for Ligonier Ministries on many occasions.
Yet, that is something that I am tossed on, it is the stand of Ligonier ministries to take a biblical stand concerning women teaching men. I may be missing something but it seems to me that Ligonier Ministries as well as other Reformed ministries are going against their own teaching on the subject when they allow Joni Eriksson Tada to speak at their conferences.
Am I wrong on this matter and if not how am I wrong?

Tom

Tom #55142 Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:08 PM
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Well, considering that giving a lecture or speech has nothing to do with leadership, but more with testimony. I would say that having her speak in a motivational or inspirational role is well within the doctrinal "Okay" zone. But I've never heard her speak so I am unaware of the content.


And if she IS teaching, I would think it's alright if she's doing it from an experiential perspective. As in "Hey, let me teach you how to appreciate God/ give God glory/ endure in Christ etc. based on the lot given me by God in life, I'm proof it can be done" sort of way. Or any other point of view in which she uses her disability to inspire, using it as a vessel to spread the gospel message, as all Christians, regardless of gender, are called to do.

3stooges

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ReformedDisciple #55143 Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:22 PM
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When she is speaking at a Ligonier conference, I do see it as teaching both men and women. I believe it involves both testimony and teaching. Below is one example.
https://renewingyourmind.org/2018/08/15/refined-by-fire-awakening-suffering


Tom

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In addition to Tom's concerns about a woman teaching men, which primarily applies to the organized church and it used to be held that it applied likewise outside the church.

It is doubtful that she holds to Reformed Theology and thus her worldview would influence many things beyond just theological/doctrinal matters. I am sure that she has been of great help to individuals who have suffered debilitating accidents or are disabled from birth, etc. But that isn't the important issue. She is speaking in a Ligonier Ministries conference which was once founded squarely on Reformed Theology, which effects all of life. Here are a few items which cause me no little concern:

Quote
In November 2009, Tada signed an ecumenical statement known as the Manhattan Declaration calling on evangelicals, Catholics and Orthodox Christians to work towards changing laws which permit abortion, and other matters that go against their religious consciences.

She also holds the following degrees:
Bachelor of Letters from Western Maryland College
An honorary Doctor of Humanities from Gordon College
An honorary Doctor of Humane Letters from Columbia International University, the first honorary doctorate bestowed in its 75-year history
An honorary Doctor of Divinity from Westminster Theological Seminary
An honorary Doctor of Divinity from Lancaster Bible College
An honorary Doctor of Humane Letters from Indiana Wesleyan University
An honorary Doctor of Laws from Biola University
On April 1, 2009, Tada was inducted into the Indiana Wesleyan University Society of World Changers and was presented with an honorary doctorate while speaking at the university.


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Originally Posted by ReformedDisciple
Well, considering that giving a lecture or speech has nothing to do with leadership, but more with testimony. I would say that having her speak in a motivational or inspirational role is well within the doctrinal "Okay" zone. But I've never heard her speak so I am unaware of the content.


And if she IS teaching, I would think it's alright if she's doing it from an experiential perspective. As in "Hey, let me teach you how to appreciate God/ give God glory/ endure in Christ etc. based on the lot given me by God in life, I'm proof it can be done" sort of way. Or any other point of view in which she uses her disability to inspire, using it as a vessel to spread the gospel message, as all Christians, regardless of gender, are called to do.
Emphasis mine.

It is WRONG. Period. No woman should teach (lead, have authority over) any man any thing. A woman most definitely should teach her sons while they are children--not men.

Second, I take issue with your use of the word gender. There is no such thing as gender. Gender is an English word for something that does not exist in the English language. It refers to words in other languages which are either neuter, masculine, or feminine--not male or female. If you mean sex, then say (write) sex. Sex is the proper word to refer to, well, the sex of an individual. It is not a dirty word, though more often than not it is used in a dirty context.

But the word gender is just another part of the feminist agenda to remove all trace of the Biblical distinction between male and female. The process goes like this:
Equal == same
Same == interchangeable
Interchangeable == women rule the home
== women rule the church
== women rule the municipality/state/country
== women rule the world.
Interchangeable also == same sex relationships.

O My people! Their oppressors are children, And women rule over them. O My people! Those who guide you lead you astray And confuse the direction of your paths. [Is. 3:12 (NASB)]

It is not my intention to single you out at all, I just don't recall seeing that word on this board, in anything that I was replying to. Though it is rampant in the world, Christians should be taught that it is not correct.


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There is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. - C.H. Spurgeon
Meta4 #55149 Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:49 AM
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Amen.

Remember Eden. Always.


In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
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Apologies, Meta, for the ignorance of my wording. Sex IS what I meant, and I was unaware of it's grammatical history/usage.

But what would you say, if, in a remote village somewhere a Christian woman arrives, and the whole village is unreached. Would you say that even to the men, she is not allowed to preach the Gospel? This is not to challenge you in the sense of battle, but a question of inquiry, because, I am still learning the strict doctrines of true biblical history and God.

cheers2

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I don't have any doubt that she holds to the the doctrines of Grace. In fact, RC Sptoul was a mentor of hers that was largely responsible for her embracing these doctrines.
You however are correct to point out these other things that no true Reformed Christian should participate in.

Tom

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The Scriptural command to proclaim the Gospel is for all Christians, not just men.
However, proclaiming the Gospel should not be done by women from the pulpit, or where she is teaching men.
Tom

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I personally have no problem with the word "gender". Providing of course it is used as "male or female."
The word does not offend me at all and quite frankly making a big deal about a word like this can do more harm that good.

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Originally Posted by ReformedDisciple
But what would you say, if, in a remote village somewhere a Christian woman arrives, and the whole village is unreached. Would you say that even to the men, she is not allowed to preach the Gospel? This is not to challenge you in the sense of battle, but a question of inquiry, because, I am still learning the strict doctrines of true biblical history and God.

cheers2
Do you yourself know of such a case? One can come up with any number of "what if" scenarios which sound plausible, yet they are not actually possible unless God brings them to pass. Remember, God is in control of all things. Without an actual case, speculation is fruitless.

God does not change; neither is He a god of "situational ethics." His word stands in all situations, regardless of all the liberal raving to the contrary. Liberals always seem to want to argue (unsuccessfully) around 1 Timothy:

"Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression." [1 Tim. 2:11-14 (NKJ)]

Notice that Paul's argument is based on the created order, and upon the resultant consequences. As goldenoldie said, always remember Eden.

But then they most often overlook (or choose to ignore) 1 Corinthians:

"Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church." [1 Cor. 14:34-35 (NKJ)]

And Paul goes on to add that this is God's command:

"If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord." [1 Cor. 14:37 (NKJ)]


Meta4

There is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. - C.H. Spurgeon
Tom #55169 Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom
I personally have no problem with the word "gender". Providing of course it is used as "male or female."
The word does not offend me at all and quite frankly making a big deal about a word like this can do more harm that good.

Tom
But Tom, the word gender does not mean male or female, even though modern day liberals have changed its meaning, in the same way they have changed the meaning of other words, such as "gay."

This is the same type of language corruption as using the word "they," or using the phrase "he or she," or "he/she" when referring to an individual, rather than using the proper construct of the single word "he" or the single word "she." And the point of this corruption is once again to mask the sex of the individual, because the liberal/feminist agenda cannot accept any difference between male and female.


Meta4

There is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. - C.H. Spurgeon
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There is no doubt words like "gay" have been changed from there original meaning. The word "gay" used to mean "happy". However, although we may not like it, when we hear the word "gay"; most people have no idea of the original meaning of the word.
The English language is a language that has changed over even my own generation, let alone in the past 500 years.
You say that the word "gender" has no meaning in the English language. However that simply is not true, check any English dictionary and you will notice the word "gender" does indeed have meaning and that meaning is determined by the context.
I am 59 years old and until you brought this subject up, I have always understood the word gender to mean male or female.
I would however have a problem with the words "gender neutral".
Bottom line to me is not the language, but the issue itself. I would rather not nitpick things like this.
Tom

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Originally Posted by Tom
You say that the word "gender" has no meaning in the English language. However that simply is not true,
What I said was
Quote
There is no such thing as gender. Gender is an English word for something that does not exist in the English language. It refers to words in other languages which are either neuter, masculine, or feminine--not male or female
I think it is abundantly clear that I was saying the grammatical concept of gender does not occur in English, but in other languages.

Now in looking at the etymology of the word, I see that the "male-or-female sex" sense existed, but was not used until the 20th century:
Quote
As sex (n.) took on erotic qualities in 20c., gender came to be the usual English word for "sex of a human being," in which use it was at first regarded as colloquial or humorous. Later often in feminist writing with reference to social attributes as much as biological qualities; this sense first attested 1963.
from www.etymonline.com. Wikipedia says this,
Quote
Sexologist John Money introduced the terminological distinction between biological sex and gender as a role in 1955. Before his work, it was uncommon to use the word gender to refer to anything but grammatical categories. However, Money's meaning of the word did not become widespread until the 1970s, when feminist theory embraced the concept of a distinction between biological sex and the social construct of gender.
And it also says,
Quote
Traditionally, people who do identify as men or women or use masculine or feminine gender pronouns are using a system of gender binary whereas those who exist outside these groups fall under the umbrella terms non-binary or genderqueer.
There is much more in the wikipedia article to the effect that the word was used in the grammatical sense until it "was popularized and developed by the feminist movement from the 1970s onwards."

So as you say,
Originally Posted by Tom
check any English dictionary and you will notice the word "gender" does indeed have meaning.
No one can argue with that. The point that I tried to make is that the meaning of the word has been changed from the grammatical sense to the sexual sense. And the reason for the change is obvious. It was not at all done for greater clarity, but rather for greater obfuscation. It is blatant part of the liberal/feminist/homosexual agenda.

But if you wish to continue using it that way, that is your right. wink


Meta4

There is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. - C.H. Spurgeon
Meta4 #55178 Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:18 PM
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Yes it is my right. It is not a word I usually use anyway; but I refuse to get offended when it is used. As I said before, you are the first person in my 59 years that I remember who has had an issue with the word.
Most people use the word not to support the liberal feminist agenda. But to indicate the sex (either make or female) of an individual.
You and I are probably in 100% agreement on the main issue; but I have found whenever I get nitpicky on issues such as this, it almost always becomes the main issue, not the issue I really want to talk about.
The other day, I asked the opinion of a friend about the use of the word "gender" and I did so without trying to add my own personal bias and he basically said what I am saying.
We went onto discuss the real issue.

Tom


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