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Originally Posted by Pilgrim
Originally Posted by brightfame52
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What is the 'salvation' which you are referring?

I believe salvation is in three phases, #2 there's salvation from the power of sin, that is when the Holy Spirit gives Spiritual life to the Sheep Christ died for, giving them faith and repentance,...I believe 2 Thess 2 13 is about # 2 The sanctification of the Spirit is the New Birth, it's called a saving work Titus 3:5

not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Okay, thanks for at least answering one of the three term definitions.

I prefer the classical Reformed/biblical ordo salutus:
- predestination ---> election
- efficacious grace/irresistible grace/regeneration
- conversion: conviction of sin ---> repentance/faith ---> justification
- sanctification
- glorification

So, returning to the questionable statement by Dave (without clarification), "Faith (evidence, substance) is a fruit of the Holy Spirit that causes saved people to believe.? It appears to be contrary to the biblical and confessional ordo salutus, i.e., faith follows regeneration which is the instrumental cause of salvation vs. an initial salvation producing faith, thus putting faith before regeneration.

However, IF I understand you correctly from your definition of "salvation" in 2Thess 2:13 as being "New Birth" (regeneration), then that would be correct. But is this the proper definition of the word "salvation" in this particular text? Methinks William Hendriksen's paraphrase of that text in context is spot on.

Originally Posted by Hendriksen
We - Paul, Silas, and Timothy - cannot do otherwise than ceaselssly thank God for you (pl), brothers in the faith (who are the objects of God's special love), because in his sovereign, immutable election God from the beginning chose you to salvation - which is negatively, rescue from the guilt, pollution, and punishment of sin positively, the entrance into the inheritance reserved for God's children - ; a salvation which becomes your (pl) possession through the work of the Holy Spirit, that is through sanctification - a process of causing you (pl) to become increasingly detached from the world and attached to Christ until his image is completely formed in you (pl) - and through your (pl) active, vital consent to the body of redemptive truth revealed in Christ; to which final and complete salvation God also called you (pl), having effectively applied to your (pl) hearts the gospel which we preached to you (pl) and which we urged you (pl) to accept in order that you (pl) might one day share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Whatcha think? Would you agree with Hendriksen's paraphrase? And would your understanding of the "salvation" (#2 definition) be appropriate?
No I dont agree with him. Remember in my summation Salvation in 2 Thess 2:13 is by the Work of the Spirit, its Salvation from Spiritual darkness, unbelief. Now Salvation from the penalty of sin, is a work of Christ alone, His Obedience, thats Salvation legally from the penalty of sin, the punishment of sin because Christ has already sustained the punishment and guilt of the sins of the chosen elect. I think we need to be careful to understand what aspect of Salvation is being spoken of in any given text. Each Partyn in the Trinity has a part in Saving, the Fathers Eternal Purpose saved us 2 Tim 2:9, the SonsLegal Work via the obedience unto death, even the cross, and the Spirits applicatory Work in time to each vessel of mercy.

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Originally Posted by Brightfame52
No I dont agree with him.
Okay, so what specifically do you not agree with Hendriksen's paraphrase?

FYI, Hendriksen held firmly to Sola Christus, by Christ alone. He also was unshakeable in his belief that salvation is ALL of God. Yes, the Trinity was active in every facet of the elect's salvation. However, it must be affirmed that the decree of God to save a remnant out of Adam's fallen race does not save anyone in and of itself. The salvation of those whom He predestinated is infallibly certain to be sure. The Son in the man Jesus did in fact by His passive obedience, i.e., His vicarious substitutionary death propitiate the wrath of God by receiving in Himself the punish due them legally, but again that death did not save anyone in and of itself, although His sacrifice did make the elect's salvation sure. And lastly, the Spirit efficaciously calls the elect, each in their determined time in history, regenerates them and brings them to Christ in whom they believe with saving faith. THIS is when the decree of the Father, the death of Christ is APPLIED and the active obedience of Christ; His perfect righteousness is imputed to them. And He, the Spirit preserves them to the end, working sanctification in them. No one is actually "saved" until that saving faith is exercised and the sinner is united to Christ. (cf. Gen 15:6; Rom 4:3; Gal 3:6; Jam 2:23)

Do you affirm this? OR, do you believe that justification is eternal or something else? scratchchin

Looking forward to your reply. grin


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Okay, so what specifically do you not agree with Hendriksen's paraphrase?

I indicated that in my post what I didnt agree with.

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Sorry, I fail to determine what it is exactly you disagree with in Hendriksen's paraphrase? scratch1

I also notice you didn't respond to the bulk of what I wrote. Nor, did you answer my question, "do you believe that justification is eternal or something else?"


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Do you affirm this? OR, do you believe that justification is eternal or something else?

I believe Justification is in 3 phases:

Eternal Justification in the Mind and Purpose of God premised on the Cross of Christ in time, but Christ was made a surety before time of a better covenant Heb 7:22

22 by so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. I believe this is also the everlasting covenant Heb 13:20

20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Then I believe in legal Justification based solely on the Blood of Christ Rom 5:9; The Grace of God Rom 3:24

Then Justification by Faith Rom 5:1 when the Justification is applied spiritually to the mind of the Justified. This is the Spirits work in Justification when the Justified sinner receives the Spiritual knowledge of their Justification by the Gospel. The Gospel reveals Justification/righteousness to Faith Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

That Righteousness revealed is also their Justification they had prior to it being revealed.

There will be a 4th aspect of Justification when Christ at His second coming Justifies His People before the whole universe, or show them to be !

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Originally Posted by Pilgrim
Sorry, I fail to determine what it is exactly you disagree with in Hendriksen's paraphrase? scratch1

I also notice you didn't respond to the bulk of what I wrote. Nor, did you answer my question, "do you believe that justification is eternal or something else?"
I cant see why you didnt see it. I plainly disagreed with his statement:


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We - Paul, Silas, and Timothy - cannot do otherwise than ceaselssly thank God for you (pl), brothers in the faith (who are the objects of God's special love), because in his sovereign, immutable election God from the beginning chose you to salvation - which is negatively, rescue from the guilt, pollution, and punishment of sin positively

I had already said that 2 Thess 2:13 Salvation is by the Spirits work. The Spirit doesnt save from the punishment of sin sir. He the Spirit didnt have the sins of the elect charged to Him so He would die for them.

Thats what i indicated I disagreed with.

Thats said, maybe all the time you wanted to find out my view on eternal justification. I trust i answered that .

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Originally Posted by brightfame52
I had already said that 2 Thess 2:13 Salvation is by the Spirits work. The Spirit doesnt save from the punishment of sin sir. He the Spirit didnt have the sins of the elect charged to Him so He would die for them.

Thats what i indicated I disagreed with.
Perhaps you should read what Hendriksen wrote again, but carefully this time? He never wrote, nor has he ever written any such silliness. In the partial quote you used as grounds for your objection, he understands that the word "salvation" mentioned first is the totality of the redemption of the elect, from eternal decree to final glorification. Here is the exact words he wrote in context:

Originally Posted by Hendriksen
We - Paul, Silas, and Timothy - cannot do otherwise than ceaselssly thank God for you (pl), brothers in the faith (who are the objects of God's special love), because in his sovereign, immutable election God from the beginning chose you to salvation - which is negatively, rescue from the guilt, pollution, and punishment of sin positively, the entrance into the inheritance reserved for God's children - ; a salvation which becomes your (pl) possession through the work of the Holy Spirit, that is through sanctification -
So, again, why do you disagree with Hendriksen's statement since your first objection is spurious, a mistake perhaps on your part from a misreading of the text? It is more than perspicuous that "through the work of the Holy Spirit, that is through sanctification" cannot be construed to mean what you think you understood he wrote. On this matter, Hendriksen is clearly biblical and orthodox. BigThumbUp


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Originally Posted by brightfame52
Then I believe in legal Justification based solely on the Blood of Christ Rom 5:9; The Grace of God Rom 3:24
1. Justification IS inherently legal. It is the proclamation of a [the] judge that the accused is found to be not guilty... based upon the vicarious substitutionary work of Christ Who is in personal union with the accused through faith. Again, NO ONE is truly justified before they come to Christ in repentance and faith in Him. (cf. Gen 15:6; Rom 4:3; Gal 3:6; Jas 2:23) It is 'by faith' (Greek dia {dative of means} pistis) in Christ that one is declared justified by God on the basis of the Lord Christ's atonement (passive obedience) and His perfect righteousness (active obedience), which is reckoned/imputed [Greek: logizomai) to the believer.

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Romans 5:1,2,8-11 (ASV) 1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 8 But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath [of God] through him. 10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; 11 and not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
Originally Posted by brightfame52
Then Justification by Faith Rom 5:1 when the Justification is applied spiritually to the mind of the Justified. This is the Spirits work in Justification when the Justified sinner receives the Spiritual knowledge of their Justification by the Gospel. The Gospel reveals Justification/righteousness to Faith Rom 1:16-17
nope Justification is not 'applied spiritually to the mind of the [already] Justified'. Again, justification occurs in time and only in time when a regenerated sinner reaches out with true repentance and saving faith to God in Christ Jesus, whereby God declares once for all that the pleading sinner's sins have been propitiated, God's wrath appeased, the infinite debt has been paid, he has been reconciled to God and redemption has been made, and the perfect righteousness of Christ is LEGALLY imputed to him, therefore and on the basis of Christ's life and death in his behalf, he is now an adopted son of the Living God. It is NOT as you surely believe, that justification 'applied to an already justified individual' is merely a matter of that person's "mind" being enlightened to a previously unknown event of which he had no part of.

There is, as John Murray's title of his book, Redemption: Accomplished and Applied two important aspects to a sinner's salvation. 1) the finished work of Christ in behalf of the elect as their substitute and righteousness, and 2) the application of all the merited benefits upon them when they come into union with Him through/by faith. The clear teaching of this truth is quickly understood in Paul's brief statement here:

Quote
Romans 8:28-30 (ASV) 28 And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, [even] to them that are called according to [his] purpose. 29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: 30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Justification follows the calling (regeneration by the Spirit through the Gospel; cf. Rom 1:16, 10:8-10). And then shows how this salvation which is through faith in the Lord Christ is unassailable and a surety for all true believers in Rom 8:31-39. Assurance follows justification by faith in Christ, and not before by some 'ex parte' event.

For your further consideration:

- "Eternal Justification" by Louis Berkhof
- "Justification From Eternity” by G.C. Berkhouwer


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So, again, why do you disagree with Hendriksen's statement since your first objection is spurious,

I already said, you reject it !

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1. Justification IS inherently legal. It is the proclamation of a [the] judge that the accused is found to be not guilty... based upon the vicarious substitutionary work of Christ Who is in personal union with the accused through faith. Again, NO ONE is truly justified before they come to Christ in repentance and faith in Him. (cf. Gen 15:6; Rom 4:3; Gal 3:6; Jas 2:23) It is 'by faith' (Greek dia {dative of means} pistis) in Christ that one is declared justified by God on the basis of the Lord Christ's atonement (passive obedience) and His perfect righteousness (active obedience), which is reckoned/imputed [Greek: logizomai) to the believer.

Well you read what I believe about legal justification, its accomplished solely by Christs death/blood. Rom 5:9,19


Quote
Justification is not 'applied spiritually to the mind of the [already] Justified'. Again, justification occurs in time and only in time when a regenerated sinner reaches out with true repentance and saving faith to God in Christ Jesus, whereby God declares once for all that the pleading sinner's sins have been propitiated, God's wrath appeased, the infinite debt has been paid, he has been reconciled to God and redemption has been made, and the perfect righteousness of Christ is LEGALLY imputed to him, therefore and on the basis of Christ's life and death in his behalf, he is now an adopted son of the Living God. It is NOT as you surely believe, that justification 'applied to an already justified individual' is merely a matter of that person's "mind" being enlightened to a previously unknown event of which he had no part of.

Yes Justification is applied Spiritually, thats how the Justified come into the Spiritual Knowledge of it by Faith. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit, a Gift from God. The Gospel reveals the Righteousness of God/ones Justification, to Faith read Rom 1:16-17, It reveals it, so it was already imputed, but it had not yet been revealed or made known to the Justfied one.



Quote
Justification follows the calling (regeneration by the Spirit through the Gospel; cf. Rom 1:16, 10:8-10). And then shows how this salvation which is through faith in the Lord Christ is unassailable and a surety for all true believers in Rom 8:31-39. Assurance follows justification by faith in Christ, and not before by some 'ex parte' event.

I can agree with that. when it follows calling thats the Spiritual application of Justification, hence one is Justified by Faith.

2 Thess 2:13,14 bares that out. You have the Sanctifying Work of the Spirit, the belief of the Truth, which is the Gospel by which the Justified is called

3 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

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by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God : Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship,created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)


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Originally Posted by Andy
by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God : Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship,created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)
Amen to that!

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Paul went on and on and on in Romans saying if it’s works it’s no longer grace. It doesn’t depend on a man wiling or running but on God who shows mercy.

The Westminster Confession says that we do come most willingly due to God’s grace. However, God’s mercy is irresistible. He is the author and finisher of our faith.

The Bible’s warnings are there to comfort born-again believers to know what they have and to keep loving no matter what the circumstances. Love fulfills the law.

It’s not there to help people make a decision for Christ. It’s there to lift up those who have the grace of God to understand the God who saved them. Preachers who preach the gospel whether with good motives or bad were acceptable to Paul while he was in prison as he knew it would fall on the seed on rich soil and God would lead them.

Where does anyone find in the Bible it’s up to fallen sinners to choose God or make a decision for Christ?

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