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#56713 Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:39 PM
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I'm curious if as Calvinists we should regard Arminians as brethren? Though differing on election and soteriology do we affirm them as brethren or do they follow a damning false gospel?


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Zach #56715 Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:55 PM
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Some do... some don't. Personally, I cannot consider Arminians/semi-Pelagians as brethren since they reject the fundamentals of the faith. The great Synod of Dordtrect came to the same conclusion back in 1618,19 when Arminianism challenged the doctrines held by the Reformed Church which were officially adopted in the Belgic Confession. What is your view on this? grin


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Zach #56718 Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Pilgrim
Some do... some don't. Personally, I cannot consider Arminians/semi-Pelagians as brethren since they reject the fundamentals of the faith. The great Synod of Dordtrect came to the same conclusion back in 1618,19 when Arminianism challenged the doctrines held by the Reformed Church which were officially adopted in the Belgic Confession. What is your view on this? grin
Originally Posted by Zach
I'm curious if as Calvinists we should regard Arminians as brethren? Though differing on election and soteriology do we affirm them as brethren or do they follow a damning false gospel?
No ! However they may still be of the election of Grace and not yet converted.

brightfame52 #56719 Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:41 PM
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Originally Posted by brightfame52
No ! However they may still be of the election of Grace and not yet converted.
True, however unless they are regenerated and genuinely converted by the Spirit, they are yet under the wrath and just judgment of God.

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Ephesians 2:1-3 (ASV) 1 And you [did he make alive,] {speaking of the saints at Ephesus} when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:--


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Pilgrim #56720 Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Pilgrim
Originally Posted by brightfame52
No ! However they may still be of the election of Grace and not yet converted.
True, however unless they are regenerated and genuinely converted by the Spirit, they are yet under the wrath and just judgment of God.

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Ephesians 2:1-3 (ASV) 1 And you [did he make alive,] {speaking of the saints at Ephesus} when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:--
Not if they are elect. If elect and unconverted the death of Christ for them has propitiated God's wrath on their behalf and Christ Himself is their advocate 1 Jn 2:1,2

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

brightfame52 #56721 Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:29 PM
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Originally Posted by brightfame52
Not if they are elect. If elect and unconverted the death of Christ for them has propitiated God's wrath on their behalf and Christ Himself is their advocate 1 Jn 2:1,2

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
So, we are back here again, eh? Logically, you MUST therefore believe in the doctrine of eternal justification, which cannot be defended from Scripture. 1Jh 2:1,2 is not applicable to the unconverted. The CONTEXT is categorically addressed to BELIEVERS... after they have been justified.

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1 John 2:1-2 (ASV) 1 My little children, these things write I unto you that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.
IF you insist that the Lord Christ propitiated God's wrath for "the whole world", i.e., for every individual man, woman and child who ever was conceived, then you have a bigger problem. evilgrin

Why don't you exegete Eph 2:1-3, particularly vs. 3 "were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:--". This the Holy Spirit wrote through the Apostle Paul. Methinks he is infinitely clear and infinitely more trustworthy than your personal opinion based upon some theological bias you possibly embrace. And, coincidentally, the overwhelming view of the Church throughout history is that unconverted sinners are under the wrath of God until they are united by faith in Christ. The propitiation made in their behalf is THEN applied and they are thus reconciled to God through Him.

Looking forward to your exegesis as I am sure many others are too. grin


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So, we are back here again, eh? Logically, you MUST therefore believe in the doctrine of eternal justification, which cannot be defended from Scripture. 1Jh 2:1,2 is not applicable to the unconverted.

I believe 1 Jn 2:1-2 is applicable to any sinner Christ died for. Jesus prays for them He dies for before they are converted friend, read Jn 17:20

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

There believing on Him was yet future, but He prayed for them because He sanctified Himself for them in His Death for them Jn 1719

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Christ is praying for the unconverted elect here, and do you doubt He makes intercession for them in Heaven before they are converted Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.


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iF you insist that the Lord Christ propitiated God's wrath for "the whole world", i.e., for every individual man, woman and child who ever was conceived, then you have a bigger problem. evilgrin

Not quite friend, He satisfied Gods wrath for the whole world of the elect, not only jewish elect, but gentile elect. You seem not to understand 1 Jn 2:1-2. You take the whole world there to be all without exception ? I dont

Zach #56725 Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:24 AM
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Why don't you exegete Eph 2:1-3, particularly vs. 3 "were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:--". This the Holy Spirit wrote through the Apostle Paul. Methinks he is infinitely clear and infinitely more trustworthy than your personal opinion based upon some theological bias you possibly embrace. And, coincidentally, the overwhelming view of the Church throughout history is that unconverted sinners are under the wrath of God until they are united by faith in Christ. The propitiation made in their behalf is THEN applied and they are thus reconciled to God through Him.

Lol, why didnt you exegete it, you brought it up didn't you ? Does Eph 2:3 say that the elect were under Gods Wrath ? Lets read it

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

brightfame52 #56726 Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:36 AM
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Paul, addresses the saints at Ephesus:

Ephesians 1:1 (ASV) 1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints that are at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus:

And thus in chapter 2, he wrote: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

EVERYONE is by nature under the bondage of sin and were/are by nature children of wrath. What's not to understand here? shrug As I have made clear before more than once, there is a distinct difference between what God has decreed, which will infallibly come to pass and the application of that decree in time. But it seems quite obvious you either cannot comprehend this biblical truth... or you simply refuse to bow to that truth.

Lastly, differences do exist and when those differences are non-essential, they are allowed. But your espousing views which deal with the very fundamentals of the faith, e.g., the sovereign predestination and providence of God, justification (the imputed righteousness of Christ ONLY and AFTER faith embraces the person and work of Jesus Christ, even the wrath of God against ALL unconverted sinners, etc., etc. cannot be tolerated. Your attitude is also unwelcome here. nono Goodbye!!


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Zach #56731 Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:47 PM
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brightfame52

Do you believe that elect=saved?

Elect, does not equal saved. The elect will in God's timing have their heart of stone removed and replaced with a heart of flesh and will believe in Christ and be saved. But elect does not equal saved.

Tom


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