The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Moral Law

Historic Calvinism has always affirmed that the MORAL law of God is perpetual and binding upon ALL MEN. The disagreement, as you surely know is if God has determined that governments are to be formed by believers only and/or are to be established upon God's moral and OT civil law ONLY? But most pressing is if the civil law established for the nation of Israel in the OT is perpetual and thus to be exacted upon all societies and by whom?

Let's take your list and have you answer that question, shall we?

Are we free to have other idols to worship? Are those who violate this law to be executed by stoning?
Are we free to take the Lord's name in vain? Are those who violate this law to be executed by stoning?
Are we free to not observe the sabbath? Are those who violate this law to be executed by stoning?
Are we free to dishonor our parents? Are those who violate this law to be executed by stoning?
Are we free to murder others? Are those who violate this law to be executed by stoning?
Are we free to lay with our neighbor's spouse? Are those who violate this law to be executed by stoning?
Are we free to steal from others? Are those who violate this law to be executed by stoning?
Are we free to lie? Are those who violate this law to be executed by stoning?
Are we free to covet our neighbor's spouse or his belongings? Are those who violate this law to be executed by stoning?

If you are convinced that the biblical answer to all or even any of the above questions is "Yes!", then please tell me who would be left on earth? Would the last man then commit suicide to fulfill this requirement? The ONLY law that include capital punishment and which is perpetual and universal is #5; murder, which is a creation ordinance (Gen 9:6, et al). The truth is that GOD is the one who will exact capital punishment upon all lawbreakers, and even that punishment isn't "death" (non-existence), but eternal death/punishment. This includes the elect who are not declared, "No Guilty" but rather "GUILTY!! as charged and their punishment was exacted upon them on Calvary through the vicarious substitutionary atonement of the Lord Christ. For they too are constantly guilty of breaking all of God's holy law day in and day out and are worthy of judgement throughout their days on earth.

Paul was not sentenced to stoning, for by his own confession he broke the law of God constantly:

I would say yes to all those who violate the moral law are to be put to death. But the civil magistrates haven't done their due diligence in enacting the civil punishments. Many states say that corporal punishment is cruel and unusual punishment are in reality say God is cruel for saying one who murders, its his (or her) life for their life.


And it does not have to be stoning, eitther. A guillotine, firing squad, noose, electric chair, lethal injection, gas chamber, will suffice.

Okay, let me be sure I have understood your view correctly. Every man, woman, and child who breaks any of the Ten Commandments of God are to be executed, correct?

IF <--- I have understood you correctly, then again my questions above need to be addressed:

1. Who is to do the executions?
2. Is there any man, woman, or child who has not violated any of the Ten Commandments myriad times daily?
3. IF you want to assert that true believers are exempt from capital punishment, then evidently logic would demand that you believe that ALL unbelievers should be immediately executed, correct?

My point is I can find nowhere where the civil punishments have been rescinded. What you posed are very serious and deep questions that I do not take lightly, neither do I seek to avoid answering them. Let me study, and also pray, before I give you the answers you seek from me, I may need a few days, okay?

Not every one of the commandments was punishable by death. Adultery, blasphemy, idolatry, and murder, were, but stealing and lying for instance, I don't think was punishable by death.


But the church is not the one to execute those who break God's laws that are punishable by death. That is the duty of the civil magistrates.

No one would be left alive on Earth if the civil magistrate enforced the moral law by exacting the prescribed penalties, especially since Christ Himself clarified the moral law:

• Lust in one's heart - death by stoning.

• Angry with another without cause - death by stoning

• Causing another to stumble into sin - death by drowning, tied to a millstone

etc

A free society is only possible among men of good moral character. What the world needs is a true God-breathed revival, not another reign of Roman (Catholic) terror.

I don’t think lusting in the heart would bring the death penalty. None can know the machinations of the mind. If that’s the case, then thinking of murdering someone would also result in the death penalty.

As William Penn said, “Men must be governed by God or they will be ruled by tyrants.”

Just because the RCC ran roughshod over many via their inquisitions does not mean civil magistrates cannot execute the civil penalties prescribed in God’s law.

Man’s law has given us:

1) Same sex marriage
2) Women the right to murder their unborn babies
3) LGBTQ+ rights, including adopting babies to pollute their minds into believing their lifestyle is acceptable

God’s law, properly enforced, does away with all these abominations.

I'm glad you mentioned God being the One who will bring wrath/judgment upon lawbreakers, and I heartily agree. However, how is God's justice meted out? We can find in Romans 12, bleeding over into chapter 13:

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation. Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY,” says the Lord. “BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.[Romans 12:14-21]


Here we see we are not the ones who are to take justice into our own hands, but to give this over to God. Now, how does God do this exactly? When chapter 13 starts, Paul hasn't started a new thought (I am sure you already know this, but to make a point), but expounds upon what he wrote in chapter 12:

Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake.[Romans 13:1-5]


God uses civil magistrates to exact justice upon lawbreakers. Yes, He has used supernatural means, with Achan and his family in Joshua 7. But He usually uses others to accomplish it. Look at Isaiah 10 for instance. He called the Assyrians His rod of anger (vs 5) and His axe (vs 15). He used them to accomplish His will. We even see this in a parable told by Jesus:

Now He was telling them a parable to show that at all times they ought to pray and not to lose heart, saying, “In a certain city there was a judge who did not fear God and did not respect man. There was a widow in that city, and she kept coming to him, saying, ‘Give me legal protection from my opponent.’ For a while he was unwilling; but afterward he said to himself, ‘Even though I do not fear God nor respect man, yet because this widow bothers me, I will give her legal protection, otherwise by continually coming she will wear me out.’” And the Lord said, “Hear what the unrighteous judge said; now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them? I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?”[Luke 18:1-8]

This widow was being bothered (ESV used "justice", whereas the NASB used "legal protection") and she did the right thing. She did not take justice into her own hands, but sought civil magistrates to exact justice for her.


I'm slowly answering you, one post at a time.

I want to clarify this as I cannot edit it now. I misspoke when I said that those who violate the moral law are to be put to death. Not all violations were worthy of death, so not every moral law broken was to be punished via capital punishment.

Well, let's transfer all the capital crimes over into the NT and our day to see if your view is feasible, shall we? Now ignoring the logic of the outcome which since God is perfect Logic, is this really what the Bible teaches? So, here's a brief list of offenses that God required of Israel (not the other nations) to exact on sins/offenses committed:

In the Old Testament, capital punishment (often stoning) was prescribed for a wide range of offenses, including murder, kidnapping, and blasphemy, but also for religious crimes like idol worship, false prophecy, and disrespecting parents. Adultery, incest, homosexuality, and certain forms of witchcraft were also capital offenses. Other capital crimes included working on the Sabbath and failing to confine a dangerous animal that caused death.

Here is a list of some offenses for which the Old Testament prescribed capital punishment:
Religious Offenses
Idolatry: Sacrificing to other gods, or children to Molech, was a capital offense.
False Prophecy: A prophet who led people to worship other gods and/or those whose prophecies failed to materialize was to be put to death.
Witchcraft and Divination: Practicing sorcery, soothsaying, or necromancy (communicating with the dead) was punishable by death.
Blasphemy: Cursing God's name or speaking against Him was a capital crime.
Sabbath-Breaking: Working on the Sabbath was a serious offense that carried the death penalty.

Family and Personal Offenses
Murder: The killing of another person was a capital crime.
Kidnapping: The unlawful seizure of a person was punishable by death.
Disobedience to Parents: A rebellious, stubborn, and disobedient son could be stoned to death.
Adultery: Sexual intercourse with a married person or betrothed virgin was a capital offense.
Incest and Homosexuality: Certain forms of incest and homosexual acts were punishable by death.

Other Offenses
Attacking or Cursing a Parent: Strikes or curses against a father or mother were capital offenses.
Perjury in Capital Cases: Giving false testimony in a case that could result in a death sentence was a crime punishable by death.
Failure to Confine a Dangerous Animal: If a dangerous animal killed someone, the owner could face the death penalty.
Apostasy: Wilfully following other gods or leading others to do so was a capital crime.

Okay, so applying your view, assuming I understand it correctly, this again begs the questions posed to you: WHO would not be executed in this present world? And WHO would be authorized to carry out the executions? In short, WHO is NOT guilty of breaking any of those laws in their lifetime? How about YOU? Are you guiltless before God and not subject to being put to death due to transgressing any of the OT moral laws?

Not every law had the death penalty prescribed to it. If you stole, you were required to repay what you stole fourfold, IIRC.

Disobedience to parents was not just someone doing so one time, but it was perpetual. And it wasn't merely slapping them, but causing serious bodily harm.

I have zero problem saying those laws that had the death penalty prescribed is still applicable today. If it warranted the death penalty then, why is it not applicable today? Has God's character changed? The Law is a reflection of His nature is it not? It is called perfect in Psalm 19:7, it is called holy, just(righteous), and good in Romans 7:12. God's law is called good in 1 Timothy 1:8. God's law is called eternal in Psalm 119:160. If the Law is perpetual, then why are the civil penalties prescribed in them now null and void?

We can read in Mark 7 Jesus stating what was to be done to children who disobeyed their parents. He even said that by them not doing this, they were laying aside the commandment of God. Jesus was not laying aside the civil penalty for rebellious children, but actually driving it home. If this was the just thing to do under the Law, and the Law is a reflection of God's nature, which included the civil penalties prescribed for each offense, then why are they no longer applicable today? What changed? If h@m@sexuality was punishable by death then, and it was the just thing to do per God, then why is it all of a sudden no longer punishable today? What changed? Same with witchcraft, false prophets, blasphemy, et al?

Using Greg Bahsen's (actually from VanTil et. al.) presuppositional apologetic, the "presupposition of Theonomic Reconstructionism (Theonomy) is in error for it is based upon the idea that Israel as a nation is "special" over all peoples and is the paradigm upon which ALL nations are to be instituted. Israel was the foreshadow of the CHURCH and not a blueprint for world political and social constructs. What we see in Israel is indeed a revelation of God's sovereignty and holiness with some foreshadowing of the NEW Heavens and NEW Earth. There is not going to be a "Christianized" world anywhere. The Law was the "schoolmaster" that showed the incomprehensible depravity of man, the futility of trying to keep it for the purpose of gaining or maintaining God's favor, and lastly the absolute necessity of looking only to the remedy provided by God Himself; the Messiah Who would be the perfect law keeper (active obedience) and the sacrificial Lamb (passive obedience) Who would be endure the punishment owned by sinners (the elect). A secondary faux pax is the distorted interpretation of Matt. 5:17 "Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil." But that's another major discussion in itself which fortunately has been dealt with by myriad NT scholars.

My main gripe and rejection of that entire view; Theonomy is that 1) it relegates the magnificent person and work of Christ to a secondary position and elevates the establishment of a man-made dominion of enforcing God's law upon societies which is so inferior to God's purpose for this present world. What is that purpose? To gather OUT OF this world those whom He predestined in love to be redeemed in the Lord Christ. The remainder He predestined to eternal punishment due to their inherent guilt and actual sins. It is the CHURCH who has been given the power to exact punishment upon its professing and unrepentant members for violating the moral law. The secular governments have the power to punish crimes committed by its citizens that ideally are founded upon biblical principles but NOT mirroring Theocratic Israel, which has been cut off, divorced and is the example of the depravity of man who will not and cannot turn to God regardless of how much favor bestows upon man.

Nowhere in the NT does one find a "plan" for establishing a God-approved and mandated government system. What is overwhelming given to us in Scripture is God's infallible plan to redeem a people for Himself and how those given that privilege are to live according to His holy law. The law in general is a restraint upon sin but never the means to live a holy life. The law is the guide for life to those who have been given the desire and ability to please God, which is only in part in this life but will be fully fulfilled when they are glorified.

So, all the attempts to convince me and obviously the majority of the Christian Church of "Theonomy" are insufficient as the teaching of God for this world. This world is destined to destruction not renovation. The Spirit and the means of law are restraints for one main purpose... to allow the Church to fulfill its two main tasks until the end; 1) feed the sheep, and 2) evangelize by which the elect are called to faith in Christ. Then comes the end.

A better guiding governmental principle is found in the slogan “Don’t Tread on Me”… as a nation under God (as per His design and the natural law that sustains civil society). Further fleshed out via conservative and libertarian principles of individual rights only in association with limited government. Tea Party Movement in its best forms are “ a symbol of fiscal conservatism and opposition to government overreach. “

Checks and balances are unfortunately often even thwarted due to a lack of oversight (e.g., ‘rubber stamps’ of corrupted entities) due to the depravity of men. But in its purest form it’s the best we got.

"Don't Tread on Me" embodies a spirit of independence and resistance to oppression.

If government in tandem with media propaganda, even half-truths, is manipulating masses to embrace / manufacture(d) consent, we need to make our voices heard (especially when our representative options are failing us).

But only God can sustain us for the sake of His elect - that’s the greatest purpose and ultimate reality.