The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum A burning question

I have a question that's been occupying the majority of my thoughts lately. I was debating with a Jehovah's Witness about the possibility of free will and predestination coexisting (yeah, that's an easy enough topic). I found that I could not satisfactorily answer nearly any of his questions. This was embarassing and kind of alarming. I've always thought that I had a pretty good grasp of Reformed doctrine, but I guess I don't really have it on this one. But anyway, my question is: how can God have ordained the Fall, but not intended it? Since God created (or in some cases allowed) everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen, how can God not have intended for man to fall? Does he, say, have all the possibilities mapped out, and if we do this then this happens (cause and effect)? Somebody with more knowledge than me, please help!

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]how can God have ordained the Fall, but not intended it?</font><hr></blockquote><p> God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established (WCF 3:1)… After God had made all other creatures, He created man, male and female, with reasonable and immortal souls, endued with knowledge, righteousness, and true holiness, after His own image, having the law of God written in their hearts, and power to fulfill it: and yet under a possibility of transgressing, being left to the liberty of their own will, which was subject unto change. Beside this law written in their hearts, they received a command, not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which while they kept, they were happy in their communion with God,and had dominion over the creatures (WCF 4:2). Thus God meant to ordain the fall, but yet without responsibility for ANY sin, thus it happened the way Gen 3 portrays, by man and his "free" will (agency is a better term) taking a sinful action against God.<br><br>Though answered above, you may further ask WHY did God desire for there to be a fall? (1) Adam and Eve were created perfect (2) they walked with God in the garden (3) and, they walked in a covenant of works from the beginning (4) but, does the covenant of works and the perfect world display the full range of God’s nature? How is God to be more fully glorified if His nature is not more fully put on display? Someone asked me once to think about this statement: Is grace greater than the very act of creation itself? Which is the greater act on God’s part and more fully displays all His attributes/nature? <br><br>We must realize that God is love. Adam and Eve, though they walked with God, never experienced the full range of God’s nature until after the Fall (no greater love hath a man than this that he lay down his life for another….and neither could mankind experience all of God's nature....) thus, for mankind to understand the love of God he had to understand more of the full range of God’s nature: God is love, but also holy and thus, just. Man had to fall, so grace could be revealed. <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"] Since God created (or in some cases allowed) everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen, how can God not have intended for man to fall? Does he, say, have all the possibilities mapped out, and if we do this then this happens (cause and effect)?</font><hr></blockquote><p> There is only one possibility of what does/will happen, not multiple and God is completely sovereign in all; thus may without violating His control of things or violating man’s free agency, foreordain only one possibility and it come to pass to accomplish the counsel of His will.<br><br>You may enjoy this thread on infralapsarian and supralapsarian and read this article Infra-Supra. Also read the article Double of Predestination

First I think it is important to understand man's place in all of creation. Did God create man for man's sake, or for His own Glory (Rom 11:36, 1 Cor. 10:31)? If he did create man for His glory, does it matter how and for what He created man? Is He in anyway obliged to man? Another thing if He created man for His own glory, then is it wrong of Him to allow some to be condemned and others be shown mercy Rom. 9:21? Without sin, God's forgiveness and mercy are but two attributes which would never have been revealed. His love (sending His own Son) transcends the attribute of Love that we would have been enabled to understand about Him. Also, remember it isn't God who made man a sinner. Man was made upright. But, because of who God is as the creator, He knew what man would do after creation. The fall was predestined because God knew exactly what man would do in the circumstances of the Garden. God did not make man a sinner, but He did know what would make him a sinner. I like to think (speculation) that because God made man so well, man couldn't have sinned until he was exposed to the tempter. All those born after Adam are born in sin Ps. 51:5. They are not created after the image of God anymore but after the image of Adam. Gen. 5:3. God could have just as well turned His back on the remaining seed of Adam, but instead decided to show His mercy and forgiveness. It is only because of His mercy and grace that any of us are able to rejoice as Children of God, instead of remaining Adam's children, lost sinners whose father is the devil Jn. 8:44. We who are saved now have on Christ's righteousness. This is a quick response, but may be of some help in your thought process.

<br> I would suggest picking up a copy of Stephen Charnock's "Existance and Attributes of God"...the best theology and apologetics book I know to exist...he was a Preacher's Preacher....a deep thinker....though his words flow in ways easily understood....he many times says more in a sentance, a paragraph, or a page, than most others say in volumes....and this subject and countless others are well put to rest in this 1200 page volume...Christianbooks.com was running a special for a one volume hardback for $9.99....I have bought several and handed them out....it's contents are worth 10,000 X 10,000 that much....many times one sentence can get my small mind turning for days or weeks with great wonder....may the Lord's great grace put this work of His great grace in your hands.....Thanks be to God for giving so much grace to Stephen Charnock. AMEN !!!!

Ah, the eternal question of the "Problem of Evil." There's a reason why 2,000 years of theologians have called it the "problem" of evil, it's a very difficult question to answer. But there is an answer, and depending on where you come down on the predestination issue, you may have a different idea of what the answer is. What you propose, God knows an all our possible responses and has a contingency plan for each is a common idea held by hard-core Arminians that emphasize that man's will is totally free, and God is sovereign only as long as He doesn't interfere with the absolute freedom of man. (Obviously, I've worded that in a heavily bias way) I'm not one of these.<br><br>I agree with what's been said here, that God in fact DID intend for the fall to happen. I think you've backed yourself into a corner with a false dichotomy. He must have intended it because He knew it was going to happen even before He said "Let there be light." He put that tree there knowing they would eat it; He told them not to eat it knowing that they would, and He allowed the serpent to tempt Eve while He watched and did nothing. If He didn't intend it to happen, He could have stopped it at any time. Does that make Him responsible? No. He didn't force them to eat of the fruit; they decided to eat it of their own free will. God cannot be the author of evil because He has no evil within Him. The best definition of evil that I've heard was simply that evil is the absence of God, in the same way that darkness is the absence of light. Since God cannot be an absence of Himself, He cannot create evil. However, He can create other creatures with free wills that give them the capacity to create evil for themselves.<br><br>Why did God allow it? Ah, now that's a much bigger question, and perhaps beyond the scope of your question. Any time you ask "Why" you go up a whole level of abstract-itiude. :-) But briefly I believe that the greater good and the greater glorification of God has been served by all of redemptive history that has happened in the wake of the fall than might have happened had Adam and Eve simply lived forever in the garden without a care in the world.<br>

I've heard stories about that 1,200 page behemoth. It is the authority on the subject, and it also makes an excellent platform to boost yourself to change a light-bulb. If you drive a truck, you can throw a copy in the back to improve your traction in the winter when the roads get icy. :-) Another excellent work on the same topic is A.W. Tozer's "Knowledge of the Holy." And at a mere 120 pages, you actually stand a chance of finishing it before going blind. :-) It's small but dense. I highly recommend it for every Christian.

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Does he, say, have all the possibilities mapped out, and if we do this then this happens (cause and effect)?</font><hr></blockquote><p>I have never been comfortable, either intellectually or otherwise with anything that even implies that "God knew..... therefore He did, etc." What I find especially objectionable is the example Marcus gave, "God knew all the possibilities of would happen and therefore designed a contingency plan for all possible scenarios." [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/rolleyes.gif" alt="rolleyes" title="rolleyes[/img] The most odious, to the senses and the one which is taught in Scripture is that God determined, foreordained, decreed ALL THINGS, even down to the movement of the smallest particle of matter, and [color:red]thus</font color=red> He knew what would be. God's "foreknowledge" is derived from His eternal counsel and not vice versa. From this truth, we are seemingly forced to then make an apology by stating, "But God is not the author of sin!!!" and likewise affirming, "Secondary causes are upheld, not doing violation to the volition of the creature", etc. Fine and dandy... these things are true.<br><br>Incontrovertibly, God (fore)ordained the Fall and man's redemption in Christ AND holds each and every human being responsible for their own sin and corruption. When Adam fell, he died. And so, everyone of his progeny are born into this world with the stain of guilt upon their record by imputation and the corruption of soul by inheritance. How can these things be? Paul effectively deals with this issue in Romans 9. After dashing the objections to the ground and revealing the progression of salvation with the rejection of the Jews and inclusion of the Gentiles, he finds himself overwhelmed by these incredibly profound truths and exclaims:<blockquote>Romans 11:33-36 (ASV) "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and unto him, are all things. To him [be] the glory for ever. Amen."</blockquote>Should we not to likewise? . . . "to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved:"<br><br>1 Timothy 1:17 (ASV) [color:blue]"Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, [be] honor and glory forever and ever. Amen."</font color=blue><br><br>In His Grace,

Over the weekend, I did some browsing of some of my books and I found that the best book I own on the subject is Loraine Boettner's, "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination". He uses plenty of scripture to underpin all the points concerning Predestination. You can find in on Christianbook Com for 10.99, maybe you can get a secondhand copy somewhere cheaper.<br><br>Mike

Mike,<br><br>Boettner's book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination is an excellent recommendation. It is one of the "Classics" which should be read by everyone. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img]<br><br>And just a historical note that will make some , way back when . . . as a young man, I remember that you could buy all 5 of Dr. Boettner's books directly from him for the enticing price of only $11.95! And they were all hardback, too. Here are the books that were offered:<ul>[*]The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination</li>[*]Immortality</li>[*]Studies in Theology</li>[*]The Millennium</li>[*]Roman Catholicism</li>[/LIST]Those were the "Good Old Days"! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/joy.gif" alt="joy" title="joy[/img]<br><br>In His Grace,

I still remember people who refused to read his books because they didn't care to be taught by a woman... poor man.. haha.

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]God's "foreknowledge" is derived from His eternal counsel and not vice versa. </font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Pilgrim,<br><br>That's the nut of it. One just needs to ponder the contrary to see the absurdity of all non-Reformed positions.<br><br>Ron

My dad has a copy of that. Maybe I'll have him send it to me.

Why Wait? The Reformed Doctrine Of Predestination

Wow! I didn't know that it was online, I guess I didn't search very well. I just ordered a copy for a friend of mine from http://www.cvbbs.com/ which is a great place to get reformed books at a good price. Another thing to take into consideration, it is hard to get the computer to give off that good old book smell, which I think is a real stimulate to my reading. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink[/img]

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Another thing to take into consideration, it is hard to get the computer to give off that good old book smell, which I think is a real stimulate to my reading.</font><hr></blockquote><p> But, OH that DSL connection, the Linksys Router, 80 gig hd, Running Windows XP Pro, and reading without flipping a page….. well, ok its not all that good.... reading a HB is always better. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/rofl.gif" alt="rofl" title="rofl[/img] I do agree there are times that I would just rather sit down and read a book rather than read on-line. Plus, this way my wife always has a gift she can purchase for me at those special times of year. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile[/img]<br><br>CVBBS is a great place to purchase books. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/yep.gif" alt="yep" title="yep[/img]