Zoe said: <font face="Comic Sans MS">Dear Pilgrim, I appreciate your response. I still cannot find any scripture that states that "Adam was responsible." </font>
Zoe shockingly proposed: The same thing happened with Adam. God [color:"red"]needed[/color] a Saviour to come. God [color:"red"]needed[/color] all mankind to be made sinners. He [color:"red"]needed[/color] all mankind to be condemned. The [color:"red"]only way[/color] to achieve that was to have Adam break His law in the garden. The end justifies the means. God will be seen to be fully righteous in all His dealing with humanity.
Zoe,
I must confess that I was more than a little dismayed when I read your reply. There was and is no doubt that you have embraced serious error, but truly it must be seen as heresy; against which the entire Christian church stands opposed. To state that God "needed" something is unimaginable. The Sovereign LORD lacked something and thus He created life so in order to fulfill some lack in Himself? Where do you get these things? For if God is in need of ANYTHING, then surely, He would not meet the definition of deity as set forth in the Scriptures.
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Zoe then erred further stating: Sure, we plan. We want to do this and to do that. We want to go here and go there. But are we really free to do that which our minds and hearts determine we want to do? Not really for James deals rather beautifully with this whole matter here: . . .
The problem here is that you have wrested the text out of its own context!! The passage taken as a whole teaches something totally contrary to what you have twisted it to mean:
James 4:11-17 (ASV) "Speak not one against another, brethren. He that speaketh against a brother, or judgeth his brother, speaketh against the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judgest the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. One [only] is the lawgiver and judge, [even] he who is able to save and to destroy: but who art thou that judgest thy neighbor? Come now, ye that say, To-day or to-morrow we will go into this city, and spend a year there, and trade, and get gain: whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. What is your life? For ye are a vapor, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall both live, and do this or that. But now ye glory in your vauntings: all such glorying is evil. To him therefore that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."
First of all, James is affirming the responsibility of man in that his primary purpose is to chide those professing Christians who take upon themselves to be the judge of the eternal destiny of their brethren; presuming to know God's immutable will. Thus he rebukes them by saying that they are not to be judges of their brethren, but rather they are to BE RESPONSIBLE in their doing of the law. They are to obey the law and not be judges of it.
Yes, "if the Lord willeth. . ." then what they will to do will be done. But the fact that they will necessitates de facto that they planned and desired, for the will is the servant of the mind and appetite. Just because God prevents men from doing what they will does not relieve them of any culpability.
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Zoe confessed: I still cannot find any scripture that states that "Adam was responsible."
If you are demanding that the "word" responsible be used, then you are certainly right to a point. However, what the word responsible means is indisputably taught in regard to every thought, word and deed that every single human being owns. The very fact that God commanded Adam and Eve to not eat of the fruit of the tree and threatened them with death for disobedience necessitates that Adam was being held responsible for his actions. It is sheer lunacy to suggest that God forces a person to do that which is contrary to His will and the person's will then holds him [color:"red"]responsible[/color] for doing that which he would not have done had he not been forced. The sheer suggestion should make one cringe. For it mitigates against the ineffable holiness and justice of God. I thus leave you with a few relevant passages of God's inspired and infallible Word which clearly show that men are responsible for what they do and are held accountable for that which they do:
Proverbs 16:9 (KJV) "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps." (In fact the entire book of Proverbs)
Matthew 25:41-46 (ASV) "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me. And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life."
Galatians 6:7 (KJV) "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."
Not that I can add anthing, but IMHO, if Zoe would take his / her mind off the sovereignty of God for a moment and just consider that all men choose what they like, then all things might begin to fall into place. His problem is, he considers sovereignty to be at odds with agent responsibility, but hasn't shown why this is the case. Moreover, Zoe knows that he is responsibile. All men do. He also knows that God is sovereign. Both are true, so what's the big deal?! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bingo.gif" alt="" />
Zoe, Your position makes man into a robot, the very same thing that the Arminians charge Calvinists with believing! This is what Hyper-calvinists believe. Also Christ was made flesh, so "flesh" in that sense is not necessarily evil. Our sinful nature, or "old man" is evil, but not our bodies themselves. Christ proved this because he had a real human body and was without sin. A distorted Christianity that was corrupted by Platonic thought teaches this. It is not in line with the truth. Our bodies, if we are Christians, are temples of the Holy Spirit, and God cares so much for our bodies that He has redeemed them and will raise them up one day from the grave. I am curious, Zoe, what teachers have you been learning from who teach this idea of Adam being made "soulish and fleshly" and by implication evil before the fall? In Christ, Susan
Moreover, Zoe knows that he is responsible. All men do. He also knows that God is sovereign.
AMEN. Well said. A good summary of Paul in Romans 1 & 2, IMHO. For instance, Rom 1: 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse... [Yes, in contex Paul is speaking to unbeliveers, but such truths would apply to all men, considering we were all sinners...it would seem such knowledge still applies know as believers.]
Zoe, Here is a good passage that asserts both truths quite clearly. 1 Peter 2:4-9 4As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, 5you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6For it stands in Scripture: "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone,a cornerstone chosen and precious,and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame." 7So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, "The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,"[1] 8and"A stone of stumbling,and a rock of offense."They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.( See also Romans 9:30-33, which is a very similar passage)
I pray that Zoe would listen to the many excellent replies that you, Pilgrim, and others have offered.
in Christ, Carlos
"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)
Susan asked: I am curious, Zoe, what teachers have you been learning from who teach this idea of Adam being made "soulish and fleshly" and by implication evil before the fall?
This teaching sounds strangely familiar. Perhaps I am off on this, but it sounds something which Kenneth Copeland teaches. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" /> One could reason that if Adam, who was created very good was sinful before the Fall, then of necessity, the entire remainder of God's creation would have been even far more sinful, for it was created only good and not very good.
What is definitely true, though, is that whoever is teaching this idea, it has no biblical support whatsoever. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/nono.gif" alt="" />
I don't know how mankind can be responsible in the ultimate sense of the word since they were "made sinners" against their will (Rom.5:19; 8:20). They cannot not sin. All sin and are wanting of the glory of God.
A couple of points:
[*]Rom. 5:19, "For as through one man's disobedience the many were made sinners" does not imply that this is against our will. Adam sinned willingly, did he not? And in our fallen state, we ratify Adam's disobedience by following in his footsteps. Men will evil---it is the desire of our hearts continually (Gen.6:5). [*]Rom. 8:20, "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly," refers to creation as a whole and apart from man.
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
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