Jesus' parable on the workers in the vineyard (Mathew 20:1-16) is not compatible with any kind of Socialism. Especially verse 15-"Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things?". Of course scripture tells believers to help the poor and needy, and for the church to help the needy, but there are no commands for the community as a whole (whether tribe,state or nation) to use force to help the poor.The OT practice of gleaning -Leviticus 19:9-10,the book of Ruth,etc.- seems to be more of a "workfare" system rather than state run "welfare".
If you really want to research the bad effects of Socialism, <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" /> I would recommend Economic Calculation in the Socialist Commonwealth by Ludwig von Mises. He argues than Socialism is not just impractical or inefficient, but literally impossible!. After finishing that little paper, <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/einstein.gif" alt="" /> you can try his book-length Socialism. Both -and others- can be found in Adobe pdf format at www.mises.org
I also recommend looking at the books available at www.freebooks.com, especially the economics books by Gary North. Ones does not have to agree with his views on Theonomy to learn from his "Economic Commentaries" on the Bible. Even where he is wrong, <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/argue.gif" alt="" /> he is at least trying to look at the implications of many scriptures that the Christian world has ignored for centuries. IHMO this neclect is partially responsible for the world ignoring the Church and listening to false prophets like Marx and his followers. If Christians have no answers on economic questions of course people will look elsewhere.
Will you give some details regarding UK and western Europe economies. I assume they are more socialistic than the States.
Here are some questions. What are your tax rates? Do you think that your standard of living is on par? Would it be on par by excluding housing and property ownership? If you can think of any other comparisons, please give those. onF
John Chaney
"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ."Colossians 2:7
Please explain the economic differences between Canada and the States. How would you compare the standard of living, tax rates, private ownership, etc.
On the surface there does not appear much difference, but is that true? Some have suggested that the States is only 5 or 10 or 20 years lagging behind Canada and western Europe in moving toward a more socialistic public policies. Do you consider Canada as being some years lagging behind western Europe?
John Chaney
"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ."Colossians 2:7
Hiya Wes, On your first question, I didn't mean that the govt. would have a Christian view, but that we as commited Christians who are made new in Christ need to rethink our own perspective of all of the public sphere. I feel that we need to bring a different understanding to the table. One not based on the current political debates. I am not a liberal. I am not a conservative. I am only one of the "poor in spirit" who yearns to respond responsibly to the Word of God.
oops...sorry Wes, I somehow accidentally hit the submit button before I was finished with the previous message.
By the way, thanks so much for the welcome you offered me in your message. It is appreciated.
I also want to note that I in no way intended to be critical or harsh to yours or anyones post here in this thread. Honestly. I am in no postion to judge. I am of average intelligence at best and have not studied the Word or wise men as thourghly as I should.
Despite the fact that I am not a scholar I came to the reformed tradition (30 years ago) through a scholarly approach to neo-calvinism. So I am somewhat versed in the philosopy of Kuyper, Van Til and Dooyeweerd. In that teaching you come to know that Christians, even reformed ones, usually approach their philosphy of the public sector in terms of a secular attitude. Van Til calls it presuppositionialism. (Please understand that again, I am not assuming outright that that is how you view things). One tends to apply his secular dualism to his understanding of things that one thinks are "neutral" and not "religious" in nature. Dualism stems from a thomistic (old Roman Catholic) philosophy. Some forms of dualism are seeing seperate realms such as: faith and reason nature and grace Christ and culture church and world natural and supernatural philosophy and theology
The men I mentioned above teach that there is no neutrality. A thing is either for Christ or against it. All of life is "religious". There are no atheists at all. All men serve something. All men have a religion, philosophy and world view.
So what I am saying is that I always want to examine my beliefs in the light of the Word of God (first) and then my understanding of how that Word directs me to act.
To answer your specifc question of how your comments fit into what I said: (and again my assumptions of what you say may be totally wrong).
>When you take the rewards of their labors Calvin says in the institutes, "It may look to us that we can attain honor or riches through our own industry, or strenuous exertion, or through the favor of others; yet, it is certain that all these things are nothing themselves, and that we shall not make any headway by our insight or by our labors, but in so far as the Lord shall prosper both"
I take that to mean that neither you or I have earned whatever we have, but that it is a gift from God. One gets their "rewards" not from their labors but as a direct blessing of God.
So I did assume that the paragraph in which you mentioned that was the standard "conservative" party line. Perhaps you did not mean that at all, and if so I really do apologize. What I am saying is that we need to actually forget all our presuppositions and re-examine our beliefs in the context of the Word.
>Free markets, free trade, competitiveness, productivity, and ingenuity, are essential for the American economic engine...
Perhaps that is the case, but I want to make sure I have arrived at that viewpoint based on the Word since becoming regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and not on the secular values I was taught in which I was instructed to choose a "side" between liberalism or conservatism.
>It will take a moral revolution to turn this around again.
I could not agree more. Let us just be sure that the morals we refer to are based on the Word, not just the morals taught us by our secular social education.
>Let's face it America became great because it once was a nation built on freedom from the tyranny of Government intrusion.
Great from who's perspective? Mine or Jesus? Frankly I have reservations on the idea that the foundation of the U.S. was as you say it is. I think that it is possible that we have accepted those ideas because of our indoctrination to patriotism provided by our secular education. Their first priority is to produce a uniform citizenry. The care not one whit for the Word of God.
Whew, I know that I have been terribly long winded. Sorry 'bout that.
Also please understand that I am not some wacko radical. I am 49 years old and have always worked hard since I was 9 years old pulling weeds for neighbors, paper route, fast food worker, etc, up to adult jobs. I also obey the laws of the govt, I pay my taxes and do not cheat on them, I have voted in the last 21 straight primary elections and will have voted 21 straight years in the general elections come November if God wills it. In essance the govt. would consider me a good citizen. I do these things because I believe that the Word requires me to participate in this fashion. But the Word also requires that I be aware that I am made new in Christ. Not augmented, or made somewhat different, but NEW. Therefore I need to constantly reexamine my belief system. Unfortunately I often fail.
My wish for you is that God will continue to offer you many blessings.
Just a quick note. You will find that many, if not most of us here are "Presuppositionalists". In fact, you will find several articles on The Highway website by Van Til and others of that ilk. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
And another quick note.. this Board gives you 6 hours "grace period" within which time you are able to "Edit" any of your posts. You do not have to add a separate post as you did here because you forgot something, discovered some typos or whatever. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />
The_Saint said: "Profits should be distributed according to the law of Love". This may be true, but the sluggard and sloth are condemned. Charity given by the law of love is much different than the free lunch welfare is. ... Is it loving to give such a person welfare? Love is charitable and good, but sometimes it requires a tougher action. ... Most people refuse to flip burgers or walk behind an elephant with a bucket and shovel. Should I collect welfare if the shovel & bucket job is availible and adequate? Should I recieve unemployment if I am not actively seeking work? The extreme left and/or secular view of socialism is far from how we should look at it as Christians.
What you say is quite true and Biblical. Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 3:10 - For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work neither should he eat.
Thus saith the Word of God. So I have a bit of trouble understanding John Calvin when he says "...we must not think of a man's real value, but only of his creation in the image of God to which we owe all possible honor and love. ...Suppose that he is unworthy of your least exertion; but the image of God which recommends him to you deserves that you surrender yourself and all your possessions to him.
I do agree with the last sentence of your post, but would also add the extreme right to it. None of those possitions are tenable when viewed through Scpriture.
Will you give some details regarding UK and western Europe economies. I assume they are more socialistic than the States.
Here are some questions. What are your tax rates? Do you think that your standard of living is on par? Would it be on par by excluding housing and property ownership? If you can think of any other comparisons, please give those. onF
Regarding Tax rates in the U. K. Income Tax starts about 20% Fuel(Petrol)Tax 75% nice eh! Council Tax Varies approx £30 a week Value Added Tax 17.5% this little beauty is added to everything except childrens clothes and basic foods. These are all the main ones. As far as comparisions with europe I believe we in the U.K. are amongst the heaviest taxed but I am open to correction.Personally I know having been to Holland where my brother lives,the standard of living there is much higher.Also our welfare system is very generous to those who know how to use it that should read "abuse it".Comparisions can be difficult I can only share on what I know and have seen,I believe however based on what others tell me who are in europe Holland France we are more likend to the U.S. than europe in many ways. Hope this has been of some help. Yours in Christ Duncan
To answer your specific question of how your comments fit into what I said: (and again my assumptions of what you say may be totally wrong).
Wes wrote: ”When you take the rewards of their labors… “
Calvin says in the institutes, "It may look to us that we can attain honor or riches through our own industry, or strenuous exertion, or through the favor of others; yet, it is certain that all these things are nothing themselves, and that we shall not make any headway by our insight or by our labors, but in so far as the Lord shall prosper both"
I take that to mean that neither you or I have earned whatever we have, but that it is a gift from God. One gets their "rewards" not from their labors but as a direct blessing of God.
Thanks for replying and sharing a little bit of your background in your reply. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/thanks.gif" alt="" /> If I understand your position, you propose that we Christians need to rethink our view. I agree with you that those who hold a view declaring themselves to be neutral are deceiving themselves, for there is no such thing. But I’m not sure I understand your conclusion.
For example even though everything we have is a gift from God, whether that be an able body or mind, are you suggesting that we still should hold everything in common with our neighbor? Should a hard working man share his possession with a lazy man? Is socialism appealing to you?
I am not desiring to fund abortions, sex changes, etc., for the same masses that bring nothing themselves. I find no warrant for socialism in scripture, although I do find responsible capitalism throughout the OT.
In the OT Israel was intended to be a theocracy. They were God's chosen people. However they held property and possessions individually. We read of the prosperity of Job, Abraham, and others.
In the NT we read that the early church held everything in common (Acts 2:44,45). This Spirit filled covenant community sold their possession and shared everything in common with fellow believers and their families. This was a powerful expression of love for God and neighbor and we read that the Lord added to their number daily those who should be saved.
When you take that principal and apply it to society at large it becomes something else. You can call it socialism or communism but history shows us what happens next. Unfortunately there will be those who lie and cheat to get the benefits of this program without feeling responsibility for others. Just like social programs today in America. They will tell you that it's their right to do this because it's the law of the land. Just like it legal to abort your child, practice homosexuality, and gamble. Without morality and accountability it becomes a corrupt system.
Fortunately the church has overseers to guard against such sins. Churches today do not practice holding everything in common as the early church did. However we do respond to the needs within our congregations by ministering to one another and through the ministry of mercy which the Deacons perform. Every person must remember that he is responsible to love his brother as himself. This is a far cry from socialism which radically disturbs the present system of private property and taxes one to provide the presumed needs of another.
Wes
When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
Act 2:44 And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common; Act 2:45 and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need.
Pilgrim and I just had this very conversation two nights ago in the ChatRoom (ya'll come on and join us sometime). If you had need, I would share. I hardly find this prescriptive for the entire Church. It is also interesting to note that these people DID hold posessions, and there is nor command against such. I totally agree that when applied to society, it becomes a dismal failure. However, I have spoken at length with Pilgrim and he should verify how I feel about giving. I LOVE it. I give money, time, and whatever else can advance Gods kingdom. Elders are responsible to weed out improper recipients. Israel WAS a theocracy for a time. I am not sure how this sets aside the sound economical principles taught therein, tho. Maybe I'm misunderstanding.
I am not sure how this sets aside the sound economical principles taught therein, tho. Maybe I'm misunderstanding.
I'm not proposing that it does. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" /> I believe that each of us are called to be faithful stewards of all that God has entrusted to us, our time, talents, and resources. Recognizing along with Job that we have brought nothing into this world and we will take nothing out when we leave. In Matthew 25 the Lord tells us what kind of steward pleases Him when He gives them talents.
Wes
When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
I agree with you, the examples in the book of Acts are not an example of anti-private ownership. Some liberal Christians (I use that term loosely), try to use these passages to prove communism and socialism. But it was a voluntary thing born out of love for God and the body of Christ that motivated them voluntarily to do this. That is neither communism of socialism. In the story of Ananias & Sapphira (Acts chapter 5), it is clear that they were not struck down by God for anything to do with private ownership. They were struck down for lying to the Holy Spirit (verses 3-4).
I believe however, that this is in the context of the Church and we should not expect our secular governments to promote these kinds of principles.
As far as the Church is concerned, I think we can learn a lot from these passages on how we as a Church should run. I don't know if I would go quite as far as the early Church would go and sell our possessions so no one in the Church would be without (Acts 4:32). But I would say that we should hang onto our possessions loosely, knowing that they all belong to the Lord. Tom
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