Some Hebrew manuscripts, the Septuagint, and the Syriac all say 18. Perhaps the mistranslations happened due to a copyist error, but that is not the explanation for the alleged error. Since some Hebrew manuscripts, the Septuagint, the Syriac, and 2 Kings 24:8 do say 18, we can rest assured that the number is 18 and some translations simply got it wrong.
(Fred) Are you speaking about 2 Kings 24:8? I am making reference to 2 Chronicles 36:9. Both passages are addressing the same historical event. However, the 2 Kings passage states that Jehoiachin started his reign as king when he was 18 years old, but the 2 Chronicles passage states that he was 8 years old. Dealing specifically with the Hebrew, because there is no evidence that any of the major translations of the Hebrew (LXX, Syriac,etc.) are translating from a text with variants, how exactly do you explain the 2 Chronicles verse in light of the 2 Kings verse? I believe the 2 Kings passage is correctly stating his age as being 18 when he started his 3 month reign, however, we also have 2 Chronicles to contend with. That verse is telling us an entirely different age for king Jehoiachin, that being he was 8 years old when he began to reign. I am with you on the 2 Kings passage, but your explanation has yet to address the problem of 2 Chronicles. If this is a mistranslation or a variant problem, where exactly is that evidence? If that evidence is not available, nor all together non-existent, how exactly are we to maintain our stance on inerrancy and explain this passage?
Fred
"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
Since some Hebrew manuscripts, the Septuagint, the Syriac, some translations, and 2 Kings 24:8 say 18 we can conclude that 18 is a probable answer. I'm not saying that all English translations are inerrant. However, I am saying that the original manuscripts were inerrant and this is revealed by the manuscripts and translations that we have, today.
Sincerely, Jason _________________ Jesus Christ Saves Ministries http://www.jcsm.org Over 60,000+ web pages! 500+ Israel pictures, Bible lessons, weekly devotions, lots of MP3 files, free email accounts, and much more.
Jason, I don't know what to say. Am I being clear with my question? The problem at hand, that being whether or not Jehoiachin was 18 years old or 8 years old when he became king, as a first look at 2 Kings and 2 Chronicles seems to suggest, is not based upon textual variants among manuscripts within the Hebrew text of 2 Kings 24. The problem is the discrepancy between two separate verses in the Hebrew Bible: 2 Kings 24 = 18 years old; 2 Chronicles 36 = 8 years old. I would venture a guess that the translations are trying to reconcile the two passages by choosing the reading of one verse over the other. Again, my question has to do with 2 Chronicles 36. How do you reconcile it with the record of 2 Kings 24? It does not matter what english translations have rendered in 2 Kings 24, or what any other ancient translation of the Hebrew Bible has at 2 Kings 24. The problem is with 2 Chronicles 36, that states specifically that the king was 8 years old. When you researched your book, what did it conclude about the reading in 2 Chronicles? That is my question.
Honestly, I do not mean to be contentious, so if anyone else who has been reading this thinks I am not being clear, please help me out.
To be truthful with you Jason, and I don't mean this to be offensive, but if this is the kind of answers you provide in your book, I don't understand how you can honestly expect people to benefit from it. Your answers give the impression that your book was composed from a facile study.
Fred
"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
I'm not sure ifI can make it any more clear for you. There are simply some manuscripts that say 18 in Chronicles. Some don't. Therefore, some are right and some are wrong.
Since we have confirmation from Kings that the number is 18, we know that the manuscripts that say 18 in Chroncicles are right and the ones that say 8 are incorrect. Since we have some manuscripts that say 18 in Chronicles, the Bible is not errant.
Sincerely, Jason _________________ Jesus Christ Saves Ministries http://www.jcsm.org Over 60,000+ web pages! 500+ Israel pictures, Bible lessons, weekly devotions, lots of MP3 files, free email accounts, and much more.
Jason, Are these "some" maunscripts of 2 Chronicles translations of the Hebrew or the actual Hebrew text? If they are the Hebrew text, please document where you found this information. I can understand why a language translation of the Hebrew would change the number to 18 to reconcile the text to 2 Kings 24, but is there credible evidence to suggest there is a legitimate textual variant among competing Hebrew texts?
Fred
"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
Perhaps a solution is to be found in Ezekiel 18:5-9:
Ezekiel 19:5-9 (ASV) Now when she saw that she had waited, and her hope was lost, then she took another of her whelps, and made him a young lion. And he went up and down among the lions; he became a young lion, and he learned to catch the prey; he devoured men. And he knew their palaces [or widows], and laid waste their cities; and the land was desolate, and the fulness thereof, because of the noise of his roaring. Then the nations set against him on every side from the provinces; and they spread their net over him; he was taken in their pit. And they put him in a cage with hooks, and brought him to the king of Babylon; they brought him into strongholds, that his voice should no more be heard upon the mountains of Israel.
The evil which was done by Jehoiachin as described in this text can hardly be ascribed to one who was but 8 years old. If the translation of the phase, "And he knew their widows" is taken over some of the English translations, "And he knew their palaces", which I believe it should be, then this even more gives preference and and answer to the age as being 18 rather than 8.
From what I have read, there are textual variants extant for 2Chronicles 36:9. Some have 8 years and some 18. My opinion is that 2Kings 24:8 is correct and the text in 2Chronicles is a scribal error. But since there is manuscript evidence for the "18 years", there is no warrant for errancy to be assumed.
When I say "manuscripts," I'm obviously not referring to translations.
I think the following page will help you. It's a web page I made on hermeneutics. It provides some great guidelines for understanding the Bible. Link: http://jcsm.org/Education/hermeneutics.htm
God bless and enjoy your studies. Here is another link that you will enjoy. Link: http://study.jcsm.org . We have thousands of sermons online and I noticed you like A.W. Pink and we have sermons from him and his Gleanings in Genesis commentary.
Sincerely, Jason _________________ Jesus Christ Saves Ministries http://www.jcsm.org Over 60,000+ web pages! 500+ Israel pictures, Bible lessons, weekly devotions, lots of MP3 files, free email accounts, and much more.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
This verse seems to teach a particular redemption as Jesus would save His people (notice the specific group He came to save), and this verse;
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Which seems to teach a universal atonement. Various groups have interpreted the verses differently. Could you help us to understand how they are in agreement, please? Thanks.
Nice post and well put, Pilgrim. Thanks for contributing!
God bless, Jason _________________ Jesus Christ Saves Ministries http://www.jcsm.org Over 60,000+ web pages! 500+ Israel pictures, Bible lessons, weekly devotions, lots of MP3 files, free email accounts, and much more.
Jason, Your response does not in any way begin to answer my question. The link doesn't either. I am well aware of all of those hermeneutical tips, though some of them are a tad dubious. At any rate, just as a personal exhortation, it may be helpful for you to familiarize yourself with textual criticism both OT and NT so as to aid you in answering biblical problems like these. An honest critic of scripture worth his salt would not be satisfied with the answers you gave me here, because they have not in any way attempted to give a credible answer. At least Pilgrim gave a worthy shot, though I still would like to see a listing of Masoretic Hebrew textual variants for 2 Chronicles 36:9 listed according to age and weight of importance.
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We have thousands of sermons online and I noticed you like A.W. Pink and we have sermons from him and his Gleanings in Genesis commentary.
I love Pink, do you have his Sovereignty of God and the Atonement of Christ?
Fred
"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
averagefellar said: Maybe these two verses contradict;
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
This verse seems to teach a particular redemption as Jesus would save His people (notice the specific group He came to save),
While this verse does say that He came to save His people from their sins, it doesn't say that He didn't come to save Samaritans or Gentiles. If I say that I have come to speak about apologetics, but also speak about sports, it is still correct if I say I come to speak on apologetics. I never said I wouldn't speak about sports, though. In a similar way, the verse above doesn't say that Jesus will avoid saving non-Jews.
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and this verse;
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Which seems to teach a universal atonement. Various groups have interpreted the verses differently. Could you help us to understand how they are in agreement, please? Thanks.
The scriptures tell us that Jesus came to the Jew first, then also the Greek. His mission was clearly to the Jews, then to the Samaritans, then to the Gentiles. There is a progression in the gospels because this was His intention. After the Jews rejected Him, He continued His mission to other people.
God bless, Jason _________________ Jesus Christ Saves Ministries http://www.jcsm.org Over 60,000+ web pages! 500+ Israel pictures, Bible lessons, weekly devotions, lots of MP3 files, free email accounts, and much more.
At least Pilgrim gave a worthy shot, though I still would like to see a listing of Masoretic Hebrew textual variants for 2 Chronicles 36:9 listed according to age and weight of importance.
Pilgrim simply highlighted what I had been telling you all along. It's odd how you are getting so confused about this issue because my answers have been very clear and concise. Nonetheless, perhaps it would be in your best interest to move on. It would definitely benefit you more than being condescending.
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We have thousands of sermons online and I noticed you like A.W. Pink and we have sermons from him and his Gleanings in Genesis commentary.
I love Pink, do you have his Sovereignty of God and the Atonement of Christ?
Sincerely, Jason _________________ Jesus Christ Saves Ministries http://www.jcsm.org Over 60,000+ web pages! 500+ Israel pictures, Bible lessons, weekly devotions, lots of MP3 files, free email accounts, and much more.
Pilgrim simply highlighted what I had been telling you all along. It's odd how you are getting so confused about this issue because my answers have been very clear and concise. Nonetheless, perhaps it would be in your best interest to move on. It would definitely benefit you more than being condescending.
(Fred) For the record, I do not believe your answers have been clear and concise, at least as to pertaining to what I was asking. I specifically asked to explain the discrepancy between 2 Kings 24 and 2 Chronicles 36 in the Hebrew text, not 2 Kings 24 in the Hebrew compared to discrepant translations of 2 Kings 24, or translations of 2 Chronicles 36 for that matter. Ancient translations aside, how do we explain the fact that 2 Kings 24 has 18 years for the king and 2 Chronicles 36 has 8? I agree that the king was 18 when he came to his throne, but then how do we explain the discrepancy found in 2 Chronicles 36? That is the issue. But I agree; it may be time to move on to another topic. What did you think of Pink's book on Sovereignty?
Fred
"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
While this verse does say that He came to save His people from their sins, it doesn't say that He didn't come to save Samaritans or Gentiles. If I say that I have come to speak about apologetics, but also speak about sports, it is still correct if I say I come to speak on apologetics. I never said I wouldn't speak about sports, though. In a similar way, the verse above doesn't say that Jesus will avoid saving non-Jews.
That's the dilemma. What was accomplished in the death of Christ?
As to your first statement, a new question; If Jesus came to save his people, the Jews, why aren't they all saved?
As to your ending statement, I think one can be Gods and not be Jewish. Jesus still came to save His people, including Greek and gentile.
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There is a progression in the gospels because this was His intention.
I'm not sure what you mean by "his intention". What were the intentons of Christ?
I'm afraid you really didn't answer my question. The context of it was what the atonement accomplished.......universal atonement or particular atonement? Those two verses seem to support both views, which would be contradictory. Could you help us to understand the very nature of Christ's atonement?
averagefellar said: While this verse does say that He came to save His people from their sins, it doesn't say that He didn't come to save Samaritans or Gentiles. If I say that I have come to speak about apologetics, but also speak about sports, it is still correct if I say I come to speak on apologetics. I never said I wouldn't speak about sports, though. In a similar way, the verse above doesn't say that Jesus will avoid saving non-Jews.
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That's the dilemma.
I didn't simply restate the dilemma. I gave you an answer. In order for you to use the passage you cited as an argument against salvation for non-Jews, it would have to say something specific to this effect. However, it doesn't. Therefore, you can't assume that it should have been added. You are practicing eisegesis if this is the position you take.
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As to your first statement, a new question; If Jesus came to save his people, the Jews, why aren't they all saved?
The New Testament indicates how faith is a choice and only those that repent and believe, trust, and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior will be saved.
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What were the intentions of Christ?
To seek and save the lost.
Thanks for your question and may God richly bless you.
Sincerely, Jason _________________ Jesus Christ Saves Ministries http://www.jcsm.org Over 60,000+ web pages! 500+ Israel pictures, Bible lessons, weekly devotions, lots of MP3 files, free email accounts, and much more.
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