Jason asked me to start a new thread, and here it is.
Jason said;
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While this is an important issue, it isn't an essential doctrine. The doctrine of salvation is an essential doctrine. Therefore, it is good to avoid things that could divide us; at least in this thread. This thread is about alleged Bible errors. Whether or not this is a "pet issue" with you, I do not know. However, I do see how you turned a thread designed to discuss alleged Bible errors into a conversation about a doctrine that divides Christians.
I contend that what was accomplished by Christ's death is essential. What do ya'll think? Essential or non-essential?
averagefellar said: I assure you that how we view the atonement is quite essential. So essential that the reformers paid a significant price to expose the errors of Rome concerning it. How we view Christ and Gods purpose is incredibly important. While it does indeed divide, we need to work on understanding the Bible concerning this, to bring us back into unity.
If you are saying it's important, then you are underscoring what I have said. If you are saying that one's belief on the subject of predestination will effect their eternal destiny, then you have distorted or misunderstood the gospel message (http://gospel.jcsm.org) and you are incorrect.
Thank you for starting the new thread. Right now, I will only address alleged Bible errors and will remain in the original thread. I'm sure others will join you, though.
God bless, Jason _________________ Jesus Christ Saves Ministries http://www.jcsm.org Over 60,000+ web pages! 500+ Israel pictures, Bible lessons, weekly devotions, lots of MP3 files, free email accounts, and much more.
If you are saying that one's belief on the subject of predestination will effect their eternal destiny, then you have distorted or misunderstood the gospel message (http://gospel.jcsm.org) and you are incorrect.
(Fred) You are correct Jason, that what one believes about predestination will not affect their eternal destiny, however, the scriptures call us to have a complete knowledge of Christ (Col. 1:9,10). The doctrine of Predestination is clearly taught through out the scripture from one end to the other. A faithful Christian who is desiring to know Christ will want to have a working knowledge of what God has revealed about this doctrine. Thus, to sluff it off as a secondary, non-essential issue is being rather naive as a believer and displays a person with a shallow understanding of the Bible. Eventually, all Christians are going to have to deal with the doctrine, and it behooves God's people to understand it correctly.
And, I would add, that if we misrepresent the doctrine, either out of ignorance or willfully ignoring what it actually teaches, then we have dishonored God, because he has revealed it to us for a purpose. Would you not agree? In my opinion, having a correct understanding of predestination is way more important than whether or not we can reconcile what appears to be contradictory passages about the reign of a king.
Fred
"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
Jason wrote: If you are saying that one's belief on the subject of predestination will effect their eternal destiny, then you have distorted or misunderstood the gospel message (http://gospel.jcsm.org) and you are incorrect.
Did I somehow miss something here? From the original thread from which this one was created at your request, it was my understanding that the topic to be discussed had to do with the atonement of Christ. In fact averagefellar's actual question was this:
I contend that what was accomplished by Christ's death is essential. What do ya'll think? Essential or non-essential?
Now, what does one's belief in predestination have to do with the purpose and nature of the atonement of the Lord Christ? I would prefer that we at least try to stay on topic.
Oh, and for the record, I cast my vote for Essential!.
While this is an important issue, it <span style="background-color:#FFFF00">isn't</span> an essential doctrine. The doctrine of salvation is an essential doctrine. Therefore, it is good to avoid things that could divide us …..
Just so you understand this is a Christian board where we discuss “theology” (something you claim to be familiar with). You claim to desire “to avoid things that could divide us.” Right now what divides us is your inability to answer a simple question—“For whom did Christ die?”
In all my years of ministry I have never seen a person claiming a ThD or even a real Christian claim that the Doctrine of the Atonement <span style="background-color:#FFFF00">isn't</span> an essential doctrine. Then you contradict yourself by saying, The doctrine of salvation is an essential doctrine. How does one have an essential Doctrine of Salvation without an essential Doctrine of the Atonement? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/drop.gif" alt="" /> Are you espousing a Doctrine of Salvation without an essential Doctrine of Atonement? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" />
Again, I repeat the question that you seemingly are unable to answer: “For whom did Christ die?” or, if you like, “Is the Scripture in error saying that Christ died only for His elect? Please explain your answer—fully.
Thanks for your messages. I don't appreciate the tone and condescending nature of some of them, but thanks nonetheless.
I've talked about the atonement and predestination for hours. I've also studied it. However, as I've been saying, discussing those things with you on this forum is not my purpose right now. I have come hear to discuss alleged Bible errors with those that have been stumped and with those that believe in biblical errancy. I don't appreciate those that simply wish to argue and pester me into addressing this subject, on this board, immediately.
I respect your right to discuss what you wish and enjoy your time here without putting you down, teasing you, harrassing you, etc. I would appreciate it if you would do the same for me.
Sincerely, Jason _________________ Jesus Christ Saves Ministries http://www.jcsm.org Over 60,000+ web pages! 500+ Israel pictures, Bible lessons, weekly devotions, lots of MP3 files, free email accounts, and much more.
As one who neither possesses a ThD nor am I as learned as most on here.However this I know Christ never failed in anything, His death was not in any way in vain.I suggest ones view on the atonement is dependent on your view of Christ.Personally I am confident in my faith because of the person in whom I place it my Lord Jesus Christ.Fairly essential I would say. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" />
I don't appreciate the tone and condescending nature of some of them, but thanks nonetheless.
Were the reformers condescending? Hardly. We simply noticed that your website upholds some serious errors and wondered if you were interested in conversation concerning them. After all, if you are a dispensational arminian, as your site seems to portray, I think we have reason to be suspicious of all your answers. However, nobody here has been condescending.
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I've talked about the atonement and predestination for hours. I've also studied it.
Excellent. Now, could you share your understanding with the rest of us Christians?
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However, as I've been saying, discussing those things with you on this forum is not my purpose right now. I have come hear to discuss alleged Bible errors with those that have been stumped and with those that believe in biblical errancy.
That thread seems slow. However, I suppose you can pigeon hole yourself into that thread alone. Although I think a time will come when you'll give an answer that will require an answer, even there.
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I don't appreciate those that simply wish to argue and pester me into addressing this subject, on this board, immediately.
Who wishes to argue? Discuss maybe, defend the gospel, definitely. Feign unity at the cost of truth, never. This board has a set of guidelines and is a reformed board, FYI. If asking you where you stand is pestering, get used to it. If taking a stand is a problem for you, again, I think we might have reason to be suspicious.
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I respect your right to discuss what you wish and enjoy your time here without putting you down, teasing you, harassing you, etc. I would appreciate it if you would do the same for me.
In the other thread you misquoted me and accused me of eisegesis, now you seem to imply that there has been harshness, teasing and harassment.......when there has been NONE. If you aren't interested in discussing your errors, or overcoming your dilemmas in your posts, how else shall we converse? Yes, you will be dealt with fairly, honestly and courteously......you may not get a free-pass to preach at random.
averagefellar said:I don't appreciate the tone and condescending nature of some of them, but thanks nonetheless.
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Were the reformers condescending? Hardly.
You're not a reformer. Try letting Christ be your model.
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We simply noticed that your website upholds some serious errors and wondered if you were interested in conversation concerning them.
Is this the royal "We"? Don't drag others into your dishonest approach. Nobody ever mentioned a web site or a problem with my web site. If you had a problem with my web site, then you could have said so. However, you didn't. You veiled your approach in a thread about alleged Bible errors. Now, you mention a web site.
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After all, if you are a dispensational arminian, as your site seems to portray, I think we have reason to be suspicious of all your answers. However, nobody here has been condescending.
This is typical from an unloving Christian; telling the offended brother that he hasn't been offended. Pretty sick.
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I've talked about the atonement and predestination for hours. I've also studied it.
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Excellent. Now, could you share your understanding with the rest of us Christians?
This is harrassment, again. You know my answer about discussing this with you. Frankly, I'll never discuss anything with you because of the way you have treated me. If this forum was being moderated properly, they would have warned you to leave me alone by now. You don't have any right to harrass me or mistreat me.
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However, as I've been saying, discussing those things with you on this forum is not my purpose right now. I have come hear to discuss alleged Bible errors with those that have been stumped and with those that believe in biblical errancy.
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That thread seems slow. However, I suppose you can pigeon hole yourself into that thread alone. Although I think a time will come when you'll give an answer that will require an answer, even there.
This is a derrogatory paragraph. It is typical, though. "Pigeon hole" myself, eh? Why don't you leave me alone? Why don't you respect my right to post on what I want to post on? If anyone is reading your messages, they will surely be turned off and disinterested in the faith you claim you have.
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I don't appreciate those that simply wish to argue and pester me into addressing this subject, on this board, immediately.
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Who wishes to argue? Discuss maybe, defend the gospel, definitely. Feign unity at the cost of truth, never. This board has a set of guidelines and is a reformed board, FYI. If asking you where you stand is pestering, get used to it. If taking a stand is a problem for you, again, I think we might have reason to be suspicious.
Don't act like your intentions are noble and don't act like you have been kind. You've been a jerk and I want nothing to do with you.
You aren't simply asking me where I stand. Are you? You are asking me to defend where I stand. You claim to know what I believe from my site. This is more of your dishonesty being demonstrated. You simply cannot force someone to talk to you about something you want to talk about. Most people learn this in elementary school. Unfortunately, you have not learned this. I hope you avoid whining like a baby about this because you are seeming quite childish as you pound your fist and chase me around the forum begging me to talk to you.
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I respect your right to discuss what you wish and enjoy your time here without putting you down, teasing you, harassing you, etc. I would appreciate it if you would do the same for me.
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In the other thread you misquoted me and accused me of eisegesis, now you seem to imply that there has been harshness, teasing and harassment.......when there has been NONE. If you aren't interested in discussing your errors, or overcoming your dilemmas in your posts, how else shall we converse? Yes, you will be dealt with fairly, honestly and courteously......you may not get a free-pass to preach at random.
Typical, again. Telling the offended brother that they haven't been offended. I can see that you're very poor at reconciliation.
Please leave me alone. I do not want to read any more messages from you and I do not want you to post to me any more.
Sincerely, Jason _________________ Jesus Christ Saves Ministries http://www.jcsm.org Over 60,000+ web pages! 500+ Israel pictures, Bible lessons, weekly devotions, lots of MP3 files, free email accounts, and much more.
I believe William is correct; no one here has really been condescending. To be quite honest with you, it is a tad more condescending to come on a website full of strangers, assume that we are rather ignorant of how to handle problem passages, claim to have all the answers, and then become indignant when people challenge your theological positions. Just from my recent interaction with you concerning 2 Kings 24 and 2 Chronicles 36, your responses appear to be somewhat amateurish. I don't mean that to be mean spirited, but only to encourage you to maybe reconsider the material you are putting out as answers to Bible problems. The reason why I say that is because if your recent responses to Jehoiachin's age (as well as your attitude toward William) is representative of the argumentation on your overall CD ROM collection, then you run the risk of being embarrassed by an intelligent critic who knows his stuff and your material could potentially do more harm than good. Rather than taking an offense to those who are challenging your theology, you may wish to welcome it for your own good. It is much better to be peer reviewed among friends, than to hastily publish your stuff out in the real world only to have it torn to pieces by your enemies, resulting in your integrity as a scholar being properly mocked.
Fred
"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
Is this the royal "We"? Don't drag others into your dishonest approach. <span style="background-color:#FFFF00">Nobody ever mentioned a web site or a problem with my web site. </span>If you had a problem with my web site, then you could have said so. However, you didn't. You veiled your approach in a thread about alleged Bible errors. Now, you mention a web site.
Really? Did I not ask you, “Since you have a Th.D. and the topic is now separated would you like to discuss what you maintain is the truth--<span style="background-color:#FFFF00">as there are errors at your website, et. al”?</span>
Besides your abrupt unjust outburst above you avoid the real issues. You desire to discuss alleged Bible errors without a proper theological foundation. We assert that you have an unbiblical foundation. In addition, we here believe in Sola Scriptura and thus you will find very few if any requests for your services though yes, we know you have “all” the answers.
What puzzles me is why you can’t answer a simple question—if indeed you have all the answers? Why won’t you discuss the atonement. You claimed a possible division—but you have managed that without discussing it. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/drop.gif" alt="" />
Please tone it down a bit. Perhaps you should read what your own site says concerning forgiveness or effective communication. I am sure you will hear from a administrator/moderator shortly—as the person you just unjustly characterized is a moderator.
While this is an important issue, it isn't an essential doctrine. The doctrine of salvation is an essential doctrine. Therefore, it is good to avoid things that could divide us …..
So, for the sake of your tradition, you have made void the word of God. 7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: 8 'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; 9 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.'" 10 And he called the people to him and said to them, "Hear and understand: 11 not what goes into the mouth defiles a man, but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man." 12 Then the disciples came and said to him, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?" 13 He answered, "Every plant which my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up. 14 Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit." 15 But Peter said to him, "Explain the parable to us." 16 And he said, "Are you also still without understanding? 17 Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and so passes on? 18 But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a man. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. 20 These are what defile a man ( Matt 16:6-20 )
in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.' 8 You leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men." ( Mark 7:7-8 )
17 I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them. 18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by fair and flattering words they deceive the hearts of the simple-minded. 19 For while your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, I would have you wise as to what is good and guileless as to what is evil; 20 then the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. ( Rom 16:17-20 )
14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. ( Eph 4:14 )
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, ( Tim 4:1 )
6 If you put these instructions before the brethren, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the words of the faith and of the good doctrine which you have followed. ( Tim 4:6 )
9 he must hold firm to the sure word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to confute those who contradict it. ( Titus 1:9 )
I have to disagree, I feel that the doctrine's of grace are very essential in every area. I don't see the call of the church in salvation alone.
Y.B.I.C,
Dave.
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Galatians 2:16
I believe William is correct; no one here has really been condescending.
You have been here for 400+ posts and you are his friend. I'm not surprised by your bias.
Nobody has "really been" condescending? This language shows that you aren't "really" sure.
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To be quite honest with you
More language that shows . . . dishonesty at some point. Let your "yes" be "yes" and your "no" be "no."
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it is a tad more condescending to come on a website full of strangers, assume that we are rather ignorant of how to handle problem passages,
I never assumed anything. I posted my message to help those that needed help.
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claim to have all the answers,
This is another lie or distortion. I made it clear in my initial post that if I did not know the answer, then I would research it and post the answer. Your distortions are quite offensive.
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and then become indignant when people challenge your theological positions. Just from my recent interaction with you concerning 2 Kings 24 and 2 Chronicles 36, your responses appear to be somewhat amateurish. I don't mean that to be mean spirited, but only to encourage you to maybe reconsider the material you are putting out as answers to Bible problems. The reason why I say that is because if your recent responses to Jehoiachin's age (as well as your attitude toward William) is representative of the argumentation on your overall CD ROM collection, then you run the risk of being embarrassed by an intelligent critic who knows his stuff and your material could potentially do more harm than good. Rather than taking an offense to those who are challenging your theology, you may wish to welcome it for your own good. It is much better to be peer reviewed among friends, than to hastily publish your stuff out in the real world only to have it torn to pieces by your enemies, resulting in your integrity as a scholar being properly mocked.
I received an A for my book from Louisiana Baptist University. It was reviewed by my academic advisor and the dean before I submitted it for grading. Thanks for your input, though.
Fred, please feel free to cheerlead for your friends, but leave me out of it. You've already shown me that you don't have integrity and I would prefer if you leave me alone.
Sincerely, Jason _________________ Jesus Christ Saves Ministries http://www.jcsm.org Over 60,000+ web pages! 500+ Israel pictures, Bible lessons, weekly devotions, lots of MP3 files, free email accounts, and much more.
Puritan said: I have to disagree, I feel that the doctrine's of grace are very essential in every area. I don't see the call of the church in salvation alone.
Y.B.I.C,
Dave.
Dave,
Don't be fooled by William's sleight of hand. The issue was whether or not one's belief regarding Christ's sacrificial death (e.g. predestination, the elect, etc.) effects one's salvation; whether or not it is an ESSENTIAL DOCTRINE OF SALVATION. William changed it to ask whether it is an essential doctrine or not. You'll have to read closely and in between the lines with people like William. He likes attention.
Sincerely, Jason _________________ Jesus Christ Saves Ministries http://www.jcsm.org Over 60,000+ web pages! 500+ Israel pictures, Bible lessons, weekly devotions, lots of MP3 files, free email accounts, and much more.
Now, what does one's belief in predestination have to do with the purpose and nature of the atonement of the Lord Christ? I would prefer that we at least try to stay on topic. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Oh, and for the record, I cast my vote for Essential!.
Which subject? It was the essential doctrine of salvation and whether or not this doctrinal issue effected it. Now, William changed it in order to get cheer points.
God bless, Jason _________________ Jesus Christ Saves Ministries http://www.jcsm.org Over 60,000+ web pages! 500+ Israel pictures, Bible lessons, weekly devotions, lots of MP3 files, free email accounts, and much more.
From the original thread from which this one was created at your request, it was my understanding that the topic to be discussed had to do with the atonement of Christ. In fact averagefellar's actual question was this:
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