Thank you for your reply <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/hello.gif" alt="" />
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MJM asserts,
For me, the weakest link in Calvinism was their view of God's exhaustive divine sovereignty in that God, by his divine decree, had determined and foreordained whatsoever comes to pass. Reformed theologian, John Frame, says, "God brings about our free decisions. He does not foreordain merely what happens to us, but also what we choose to do" (No Other God, 2001, p. 65). Notice that Frame says, "free decisions". Here he has stated an oxymoron. How can our decisions be free if God determines what decisions we should make?
How can God be God and not know all things? If He knows them (which He does) and permits them (yes free decisions--), how can He not be the Determiner (in some form) of them all (compare: Lk 6:45 w/ Prov 21:1 & Ps 33:5 and then Rom 9:17 w/ Ex 9:16, 12:36, 14:4, and of course, Prov 16:1, 9; 19:21, etc.)? As Frame further says (page 65, footnote), “Inference may be made on the basis of God’s exhaustive knowledge of the future. If God knows our free decisions before we are born, then certainly we are not the ultimate source of them.” Do you believe in a god who is not all-knowing or have an exhaustive knowledge of the future (called, open theism)? Is this your theology, if so please provide personal biblical proof and exegesis?
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MJM asserts,
Perhaps James Sire's description of Deism best describes Calvinism's deterministic worldview:
... Fenelon put his finger on a major problem within deism: human beings have lost their ability to act significantly. We can only be puppets. If an individual has personality, it must then be a type which does not include the element of self-determination. (The Universe Next Door, 1997, p. 45)
Man is not a puppet, but, the Scripture also teaches that God is not a puppet, but you make Him one with you definition of free decisions, for God in your estimation must not know the future and be at the unending, but conflicting free-will (Arminian) of all His creatures…. How can there be any order in the universe? Please compare what you and Fenelon assert with Acts 2:23.
Your problem basically appears in the rest of your post to deal with the problem of evil—which is of course a mystery as is the freedom of the will and the sovereignty of God, the Trinity, etc. Thus, let me attempt to shed some light on this by asking you a question(s).
If God cannot prevent the corruption of rational beings, then how is He able to make some creatures incorruptible (glorified saints, angels)? If He can, but chooses not to, then the problem of evil recurs at a different level: why did He choose not to prevent the fall? Will you be free to sin when you get to Heaven?
As I also wrote, I wanted to hear (read) how MJM himself defined the word "Reformed" before making any wrong assumptions. And, he has done just that by saying he is using the word "Reformed" to be representative and synonymous with the "Five Solas". So, a "Reformed Arminian" is one who holds to the Five Solas AND to Arminianism which totally rejects the Five Solas as they were penned originally. Doubtless, MJM has REdefined the terms to suit some personal reason. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" />
The historic definition and understanding of the Five Solas are summed up nicely here: The Cambridge Declaration, which I am particularly linking for the benefit of MJM and anyone else who might care to read them for the first time or as a refresher. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Okay.... now to focus upon MJM's "god" who lives out its existence as a thermometer in contradistinction to the LORD God Almighty of the Bible Who is more like a thermostat.
Simply put IMHO he has made the "wrong assumption" thinking he can mix the terms 5 sola and Arminianism. I can refine a cat to be a rat, but that does not mean my cat is a rat (though it may look like a rat, that is fat and taking a nap). IMHO he holds to the 5 solas in word only, but his further explanation of them and his god will I am sure reveal in actuality he does not hold to them the way we do ......, thus in actuality there is no such thing as Reformed Arminianism (5 sola Arminianism), but in his dreams--which are but a nightmare of his own depraved imagination as opposed to the Word of God. Even as Fred posted, "Arminians cannot affirm the 5 solas for too long before their system implodes upon itself, because it cannot withstand any meaningful exegetical criticism."
A few months ago, a young lady was kidnapped from her college and held to ransom. Leigh's father paid the kidnappers R50 000, but she was never returned. In the end, the kidnappers deliberately decided to take her life by firing 3 gunshots into her body. So Calvinists would have us believe that this monstrous act was against God's preceptive will, but not his decretive will. God did not desire that Leigh should be murdered, but according to his eternal purpose, he foreordained it. God did not desire or want the kidnappers to murder Leigh, but it was his purpose that they should decide to murder Leigh.
(Fred) There is just way too much stuff to handle at once, so I will just deal with one aspect of your post. The Bible is clear that all men will die and the reason we die is due to our sin. Would you agree with that? The early chapters of Romans affirms this truth. Also, Hebrews 9:27 states that it is appointed unto men once to die, then the judgment. One nuance of Hebrews 9:27 is that men have an appointment with death and I believe God is the one who sets that appointment. Death is the inevitable outcome of all humanity, even Christians, except for those who are alive at the coming of the Lord. God has determined the deaths of every person who has ever and will live as he sees fit.
However, with the illustration you mention above, you would seem to disagree with that. I agree that Leigh being shot to death is a horrific crime, but her murder was an appointed means by which she was brought to her appointed meeting with death and judgment. My father suffered with the lingering, paralyzing effects of a massive stroke for nearly a month before he died that robbed him of his ability to move, talk, and communicate with his family. How was his death, according to your position, any less cruel? At least with Leigh, she was killed instantaneously. Was God not in control of those events in my father's life? It would seem from your belief system that God apparently was not and that if the biblical Calvinist view of God were true, then God is a torturous monster with regards to my father. However, our family saw the whole event as a faith building time that eventual brought my dad into the presence of his Lord at death.
Your position, by raising this illustration of the murdered girl seems to suggest that it is cruel of God to allow anyone to die at all. I guess you think the least amount of cruelity would be to let all people die peacefully in their sleep after they have concluded their lives with absolute joy and happiness with the absence of any trials.
I was particularly disturbed by the sheer lack of any meaningful exegesis your post contained. I have to confess that I did find your advocated position to be more philosophically driven by emotional considerations than built around the Bible. My wife and I are currently doing our daily Bible reading in Isaiah. Yesterday, we came across a rather disturbing prophecy made by Isaiah in chapter 13. God speaks through Isaiah against Babylon and states that he will bring destruction against their nation. In fact, God even states that he will bring "Cruel destruction" (13:9) and goes on to outline that cruel destruction by stating he will have women raped and little children dashed to pieces and any pregnant women will be eviscerated. Sounds to be graphic. Was God wrong to have moved with such judgment?
Fred
"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
I'd like to add to Fred's comments with text from Boettner's "Objections Answered", from the section on God not being the author of sin:
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God’s relation to sin is admirably illustrated in the following paragraph which we shall take the liberty of quoting from W. D. Smith’s little book, What is Calvinism?
Suppose to yourself a neighbor who keeps a distillery or dram shop, which is a nuisance to all around — neighbors collecting, drinking, and fighting on the Sabbath, with consequent misery and distress in families, etc. Suppose, further, that I am endowed with a certain foreknowledge, and can see, with absolute certainty, a chain of events, in connection with a plan of operations which I have in view, for the good of that neighborhood. I see that by preaching there, I will be made the instrument of the conversion, and consequent reformation, of the owner of the distillery, and I therefore determine to go. Now, in so doing, I positively decree the reformation of the man; that is I determine to do what renders his reformation certain and I fulfill my decree by positive agency. But, in looking a little further in the chain of events, I discover, with the same absolute certainty, that his drunken customers will be filled with wrath, and much sin will be committed, in venting their malice upon him and me. They will not only curse and blaspheme God and religion, but they will even burn his house, and attempt to burn mine. Now, you perceive that this evil, which enters into my plan, is not chargeable upon me at all, though I am the author of the plan which in its operations, I know will produce it. Hence, it is plain, that any intelligent being may set on foot a plan, and carry it out, in which he knows, with absolute certainty, that evil will enter, and yet he is not the author of the evil, or chargeable with it in any way . . . In looking a little further in the chain of events, I discover, that if they be permitted they will take his life; and, I see, moreover, that if his life be spared, he will now be as notorious for good as he was for evil, and will prove a rich blessing to the neighborhood and to society Therefore, upon the whole plan, I determine to act; and, in so doing, I positively decree the reformation of that man, and the consequent good; and I permissively decree the wicked actions of the others; yet, it is very plain, that I am not in any way, chargeable for their sins. Now, in one or the other of these ways, God ‘has fore-ordained whatsoever comes to pass’ (P. 33-35).
And Charles Hodge says in this connection:
A righteous judge, in pronouncing sentence on a criminal, may be sure that he will cause wicked and bitter feelings in the criminal’s mind, or in the hearts of his friends, and yet the judge be guiltless. A father, in excluding a reprobate son from his family, may see that the inevitable consequences of such exclusion will be his greater wickedness, and yet the father may do right. It is the certain consequence of God’s leaving the fallen angels and the finally impenitent to themselves, that they will continue in sin, and yet the holiness of God remain untarnished. The Bible clearly teaches that God judicially abandons men to their sins, giving them up to a reprobate mind, and He therein is most just and holy. It is not true, therefore, that an agent is responsible for all the certain consequences of his acts. It may be, and doubtless is, infinitely wise and just in God to permit the occurrence of sin, and to adopt a plan of which sin is a certain consequence or element; yet, as He neither causes sin, nor tempts men to its commission, He is neither its author nor approver.
True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
MJM- If you're reading this, you might feel a bit ganged up upon witha ll these responses and challenges. Remember, though, we're arguing against issues, not people, so don't take things personally! We love a good discussion and eagerly await your responses.
Thanks, brother. I'm bound by what the Scriptures say, and I'm convinced that the Lord is Sovereign over all things. That's why I speak the truth in love.
True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
I would contend that God did not desire that Leigh should be murdered, neither was it his purpose that the kidnappers should murder Leigh.
So God's will can be thwarted? Is God really in charge, if God's purposes can be thwarted? How would you respond to the following Scriptures?:
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Romans 8 26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
If God causes all things to work together for the good of those who love Him, to those called according to His purpose, then doesn't it follow that God is in control of all things? According to this passage, if Leigh had a Christian sibling or was a Christian herself, Leigh's death was for the good. In fact, it was for the good of all Christians! As my pastor put it once, "every atom bouncing off the walls is for our good." And, if God's will and purpose can be thwarted, how can we trust that this will happen?
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Ephesians 1 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
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Psalm 115 3 But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases. 4 Their idols are silver and gold, The work of man's hands.
I found this interesting in that the Psalmist attests God's sovereignty, and then he attests to the fact that man is responbsible for his own sin.
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Psalm 135 6 Whatever the LORD pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps. 7 He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth; Who makes lightnings for the rain, Who brings forth the wind from His treasuries.
True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
I've attempted to answer most of the comments and questions posed by William, Joe, Fred and Marie. Apologies if I haven't answered all of them.
(1) WILLIAM:
You asked:
> "Could you show from scripture that man has free-will?"
It is implicit in the creation of man in the image of God that we possess a free-will.
Man being created in the natural likeness of God presupposes that he was created with a relative amount of autonomy to rule over the lower order of creation (Gen. 1:28). And man being created in the moral likeness of God (cf. Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10) presupposes that he was created with the faculty or ability to either obey or disobey God. The intellectual and moral responsibility of man is indispensable to the existence of free will, even after the fall of man and entrance of sin into the world.
Even with an inherited sinful nature, Cain was a free moral agent who had the ability to master sin by not murdering Abel (Gen. 4:7). So although the image of God in man is corrupted and distorted because of the fall, he nevertheless continues to reflect the moral image and likeness of God (Gen. 9:6; Jas. 3:9).
> "If Gods purpose was to save the entire world, did He fail?"
As a Calvinist I also used to reason this way: If God desires that all should be saved, but we know that all are not saved, then God's will must be thwarted (but, of course, I couldn't believe that humanistic Arminian interpretation!!!). So, either (1) God truly desires, out of his benevolence, that all should be saved (cf. Ezek. 18:23, 32), but it is not his elective purpose to save all. Or (2) "all" does not refer to every individual person, but rather, to classes or groups (v. 2).
However, (2) does not hold water since groups are made up of all individuals. And (1) is extremely puzzling and illogical, for God desires that all should be saved, and yet, he witholds his saving grace from them!
(2) JOE:
> "If He knows them (which He does) and permits them (yes free decisions--), how can He not be the Determiner (in some form) of them all?"
Determiner of free decisions in what sense? In God being the First Cause of those decisions?
Loraine Boettner says that God foreknows what will occur because he has, according to his good pleasure, "freely and unchangeably foreordain[ed] whatever comes to pass" (Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, p. 46). In other words, God foresees all events and actions because they have been fixed and rendered certain according to his good pleasure – "the great first cause".
Therefore, it is my contention that if Calvinists maintain that human actions are fixed and set, not according to God's foreknowledge of them, but according to his good pleasure, then the Calvinian claim that God only permits sin is totally misleading. In the end, God is the first cause of all human actions, including sinful ones.
> "Do you believe in a god who is not all-knowing or have an exhaustive knowledge of the future (called, open theism)? Is this your theology, if so please provide personal biblical proof and exegesis?"
No, I do not believe in Open Theism. In my post to Janean, I said that OP is aberrant. God is all-knowing.
> "Man is not a puppet..."
If man can make a free decision, then by definition, it was possible for him to decide otherwise. But Calvinian theology says that man's decisions are determined by an unconditional, efficacious decree. In my estimation this does indeed make man a puppet on the strings of causal determinism.
> " ... but, the Scripture also teaches that God is not a puppet, but you make Him one with you definition of free decisions, for God in your estimation must not know the future."
As I said above: I believe that God does know the future. God is not a puppet. God foreknows all of the future free decisions of man, and, in lieu of his foreknowledge of them, he sometimes turns the hearts of men (Pro. 21:1) or prevents them from fulfilling their plans (Pro. 16:9) in order to accomplish his own purposes (Pro. 19:21). Man's freedom is limited. God is still sovereign.
(3) FRED:
> "There is just way too much stuff to handle at once..."
Totally agree... but we seem to be progressing <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
> "The Bible is clear that all men will die and the reason we die is due to our sin. Would you agree with that?"
Of course. By the way, sorry to hear of your father's death. I'm glad to hear that he knew the Lord. My wife and I have just been to visit a friend in hospital who is dying of cancer. What the disease has done to her body is pretty horrific. Please pray for Margie as she is not a Christian, but it is clear that the Holy Spirit is working in her life as she is afraid to die and wants to know more about God and Jesus Christ. My wife shared the gospel with her and we prayed for her salvation (in her presence). We've given her a book by John Blanchard, "Ultimate Questions". (Heard of it?)
As you pointed out, at some time death will be knocking on all of our bodies unless the Lord returns.
I believe, however, that you may have misunderstood my point about Leigh's death because I am not suggesting "that it is cruel of God to allow anyone to die at all". Perhaps you will understand my point if I ask the following questions:
(i) Did God foreknow what would happen to Leigh, and permitted it? (ii). Did God foreordain the means to Leigh's death? (Remember, according to Calvinists, foreordination is not based on God's foreknowledge because God is the First Cause of "whatsoever will come to pass".) (iii) Did God bring about the decisions of the kidnappers to murder Leigh? (iv) If God did not foreordain the kidnapper's decision to murder Leigh, could they have chosen otherwise?
Just a simple "yes" or "no" to each question would suffice (and be much appreciated).
(4) MARIE / Semper Reformanda
> "So God's will can be thwarted? Is God really in charge, if God's purposes can be thwarted?"
Yes, God's will can be thwarted (Lk. 7:30; Acts 7:51). And, yes, God is in charge in spite of the sinful actions of men (Gen. 50:20). It is not God's will for us to plot murder or sell people into slavery againt their will (as in the case of Joseph's brothers), but God used their sinful actions to bring about his ultimate purpose: "the saving of many lives". However, in order to accomplish his purpose, God did not bring about the evil thoughts or actions of Joseph's brothers. Yet, Calvinian theologians would have us believe that God did (John Frame & RC Sproul). This would make God the author of sin.
> "If God causes all things to work together for the good of those who love Him, to those called according to His purpose, then doesn't it follow that God is in control of all things? According to this passage, if Leigh had a Christian sibling or was a Christian herself, Leigh's death was for the good."
Yes, if Leigh was a Christian, I believe that God WORKED, not CAUSED, this situation for the good, especially in lieu of the fact that she would be with him in heaven. I'm not disputing God's sovereignty. Please see my response to Fred and my questions to him.
> "I found this interesting in that the Psalmist attests God's sovereignty, and then he attests to the fact that man is responbsible for his own sin."
Yes, God does whatever he pleases. But does he cause men to sin? Calvinists would answer no, but then, affirm (their view of) sovereignty by saying that God does foreordain sin. You can't have it both ways.
The intellectual and moral responsibility of man is indispensable to the existence of free will, even after the fall of man and entrance of sin into the world.
Jesus says otherwise;
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (KJV)
The Church denounced free-will as heresy as well.
You even contradict yourself concerning it...
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Man's freedom is limited.
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Yes, God's will can be thwarted (Lk. 7:30; Acts 7:51).
I think we might serve a different God. Mine is omnipotent.
Loraine Boettner says that God foreknows what will occur because he has, according to his good pleasure, "freely and unchangeably foreordain[ed] whatever comes to pass" (Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, p. 46). In other words, God foresees all events and actions because they have been fixed and rendered certain according to his good pleasure – "the great first cause".
Yep, isn’t it grand that God is He who is—God, who can do all things according to His holy nature. Just like Him to do something MJM (or anyone) can’t fully understand. I guess that is what He gets for being the boss. Being God has its privileges.
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Therefore, it is my contention that if Calvinists maintain that human actions are fixed and set, not according to God's foreknowledge of them, but according to his good pleasure, then the Calvinian claim that God only permits sin is totally misleading. In the end, God is the first cause of all human actions, including sinful ones.
Yes, your contention is Arminian—. Though God is the FIRST CAUSE of all that has/will/can happen He may do this without violating the “free agency” of man and thus hold man accountable for sin. He does this as only God himself can do it (Acts 2:23). May I ask you as God does in Scripture, “Who art thou that repliest against God” (Rom 9:20)? Are you the POT going to tell the POTTER He can’t do as He pleases with His creation? Are you an Arminian so willful that you are willing to wave your will in the face of God and tell God His will is wrong?
—I do believe it is better to interact with the Scripture, so once again, how do you exegete Acts 2:23, where we see perfect sovereignty and free agency:
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Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
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If man can make a free decision, then by definition, it was possible for him to decide otherwise.
Yes, man can chose otherwise—you got it <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bravo.gif" alt="" />, but he will chose to make a foreordained choice (for his own various reasons) which God fore-ordained (without being accounted guilty of sin, etc.)—Acts 2:23. Remember I told you it was a mystery. Would the illustration of one of Shakespeare's plays assist here, or have you already dismissed that example?
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God is not a puppet. God foreknows all of the future free decisions of man, and, in lieu of his foreknowledge of them, he sometimes turns the hearts of men (Pro. 21:1) or prevents them from fulfilling their plans (Pro. 16:9) in order to accomplish his own purposes (Pro. 19:21). Man's freedom is limited. God is still sovereign.
Now think about your statement here that is dependent only on God’s foreknowledge and not on His fore-ordination of all things. While I do believe as you stated, “Man's freedom is limited” and “God is still sovereign” it is not merely because of God’s foreknowledge—it something more? Ask yourself, “Can God have foreknowledge of something He did not first foreordain?” <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Ponder.gif" alt="" /> God's foreknowledge and fore-ordination run together as the two sides of an eternal coin. Consider this, if God does not first ordain “something” then He could not be God, but the one who foreordained “it” would be ? Put another way, if God did not first foreordain something then someone else must (or else it would not exist for God to have knowledge of it), and thus he could foreordain that God can no longer be God and have no knowledge of this fact and thus cease to exist—if this where true Satan would have foreordained it long ago. God is not a puppet because He foreordained He would never be one-and He knows it.
Of course. By the way, sorry to hear of your father's death. I'm glad to hear that he knew the Lord. My wife and I have just been to visit a friend in hospital who is dying of cancer. What the disease has done to her body is pretty horrific. Please pray for Margie as she is not a Christian, but it is clear that the Holy Spirit is working in her life as she is afraid to die and wants to know more about God and Jesus Christ. My wife shared the gospel with her and we prayed for her salvation (in her presence). We've given her a book by John Blanchard, "Ultimate Questions". (Heard of it?)
(Fred) I appreciate the sentiment about my dad's death. That was way back in 96. Just out of curiosity, under your view of libertarian autonomy, is it even proper for the holy spirit to work in your friend's life? Would not God be meddling with her will, influencing it in some direction? Yes, I am quite familiar with Blanchard (he's a Calvinist by the way).
I will attempt to be brief. I see you are deluged with a lot of responses to others.
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I believe, however, that you may have misunderstood my point about Leigh's death because I am not suggesting "that it is cruel of God to allow anyone to die at all". Perhaps you will understand my point if I ask the following questions:
(fred) So the issue with you is the means by which God brings about the person's death? God is not allowed morally to bring about a person's death by the hands of sinners? Say for instance the two fellows beheaded in Iraq this week?
(i) Did God foreknow what would happen to Leigh, and permitted it? Yes, he not only fore saw what would happen, he ordained it.
(ii). Did God foreordain the means to Leigh's death? (Remember, according to Calvinists, foreordination is not based on God's foreknowledge because God is the First Cause of "whatsoever will come to pass".) Yes, and it is not just "according to Calvinist;" it is biblical doctrine. God cannot foreknow something that he did not ordain. That suggest there are events that developed in time apart from God's creative act.
(iii) Did God bring about the decisions of the kidnappers to murder Leigh? If by "bring about the decisions" you mean to say, "Did God force them against their will" then no, God did not force them. He did not force the kidnappers to murder Leigh anymore than he forced the Assyrians to go into Israel, slaughter the nation of people more cruelly than what Leigh suffered (Isaiah 10). Moreover, the Assyrians were the chosen means by which to bring about judgment upon the northen kingdom.
(iv) If God did not foreordain the kidnapper's decision to murder Leigh, could they have chosen otherwise? No, that would suggest that they could have thwarted God's appointed time for Leigh's death, something that had been determined in eternity past, before he created the world. The question could also be asked of you in regards to a biblical example. Peter specifically states that Jesus was delivered up by the predetermined and ordained purposes of God to be murdered at the hands of the Jews and the Romans. In light of the necessity of fulfilled prophecy, could Pilate had chosen to release Jesus inspite of the Jews demand to crucify him? What about Joseph's brothers who sold him into salvery. Seeing that it was God's preordained intention to save a nation of people alive (Genesis 50:19,20), could Joseph's brothers chosen to be good toward their brother and not mean evil against him? Their evil act was clearly the vehicle God used to save the people. Fred
"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
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