The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum The Role Of Works In Our Salvation (2)

fredman,

Monergism would affirm that only three things are necessary for man's justification before God:
1. Grace of God-Election
2. Merit of Christ-Finished work of the Cross
3. Faith given by the Holy Spirit-Hearing of the Word

For the third and last time, you have no standing to inquire regarding the past faith or future faith of another person. For yourself, you should take comfort in the gospel, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved."

Covenant in Blood,

Thanks! Your explanation is quite helpful.

Three more questions: Will God cause all the steps to occur eventually? Does anything prior to and including forensic justification involve man's unforced cooperation? Is the righteousness of Christ imputed to the sinner by faith alone?

(Fred) Yep, that is pretty much what I affirm. That is what historical, biblical Calvinist have always affirmed. I am curious why you think otherwise?

Though on the last point, I agree that the faith given by the holy spirit will be effective in the life of the sinner so that the sinner will most certainly embrace Christ, meaning it will always be 100% beneficial. You seem to suggest a prevenient grace perspective with salvation. In other words, the sinner can either embrace the faith or reject it. The scriptures do not teach there is an option for sinners to reject God's efficacious grace. All sinners who are granted God's effectual grace are elect sinners to begin with. If you believe differently, and all of the hardcore Lutherans I have debated in the past do, I would like for you to provide some scriptural evidence of a person rejecting effectual regenerative grace.


(Fred) Sorry bud, the Bible witnesses against you. As I pointed out before, the book of 1 John was written that Christians may know they have eternal life (1 Jn. 5:13). John affirms the reality of that certain knowledge by providing a divinely inspired list of outward "markers" that identify a person's saving faith, ie, anyone who says he does not sin is a liar, anyone who hates the brethern is a liar, anyone loving the world is not "one of us," etc. Thus, the Bible does provide me a firm foundation of standing on which to inquire after a person's past or future faith. John's first epistle is just one example from the NT. We could also explore 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Colossians, 2 Peter and Jude if you wish, but for you to avoid answering my question on eternal security by hiding behind what Lutheran theologues have contrived as being a "mystery of faith," or whatever they want to call it, does not help you credibility in the least.

Fred

Hey... I'll answer those three questions too!

• Will God cause all the steps to occur eventually? God has foreordained ALL things; the end and the means to that end in eternity. Thus the salvation of the elect is certain and occurs exactly at the appointed time.
• Does anything prior to and including forensic justification involve man's unforced cooperation? Man does not "cooperate", forced or otherwise in justification. However, man is involved in the justification, for justification is by faith. When the Holy Spirit regenerates a person at God's appointed time, faith is immediately created in that new spiritually alive soul, which then immediately, infallibly and naturally reaches out and embraces the Lord Christ. The regeneration is prior to conversion and is wholly the work of the Spirit of God and not known by the recipient. Conversion, however, is experienced by the sinner since he experiences the result/effects of regeneration; conviction of sin and a compelling desire to be reconciled to God through Christ. The sinner is justified by faith; the sinner's faith. God doesn't believe on Christ substitutionally for the sinner. It is an act of the sinner made possible due to the new nature and which will infallibly rest in Christ. For one of the finest explanation of Sola Fide, see here: Justification by Faith Alone, by Dr. Joel Beeke.
• Is the righteousness of Christ imputed to the sinner by faith alone? If by this you are asking if justification, i.e., the imputation of Christ's righteousness is dependent upon something other than faith, either prior too regeneration or after conversion, the answer is "No!". Faith and faith alone is the ordained means by which a sinner is reconciled to God in Christ and that God declares the sinner justified. That being said, true saving faith is a repentant faith, i.e., it is a faith that both hates sin and desires righteousness; confessing that there is no good thing within and that the Lord Christ is one's only hope of salvation. We do not hold to any form or Sandemanianism (Easy Believism) or Libertarianism. Faith without works is dead.

In His Grace,

fredman,


There is confusion of terms. Let me draw an analogy between the Word and medicine. Medicine is efficacious whether one believes it is or not. However, it only becomes beneficial if it is received.


Just the opposite, my concern is that Calvinism is embracing prevenient grace by saying that God delivers salvation in little packets along the order of salvation.


The sinner has no free will either to accept or reject. God's efficacious grace is beneficial when and where it pleases God.


The efficacious Word is beneficial when and where it pleases God. But like all true Calvinists, you wish to say more than scripture teaches. The Lutheran Confessions show the harm in so doing.


Formula of Concord, Solid Declaration, Election

(Fred) I think Pilgrim has already addressed this, but you do have some serious inconsistencies, because on one hand, you want to say that man can do nothing to choose his salvation, but then he cannot benefit from it unless it is received. You want to hold onto man having a choice but still being declared as totally depraved. The Bible teaches that the efficaciousness and benefit of regeneration are not separate. Those given the medicine will receive it because God puts it in their hearts to believe it. That is regeneration according to scripture. By the way, the word "received" implies an action of reason on the part of the recepient and infants cannot do that. Unless of course you strike that up to that supposed mystery that is no where mentioned in the Bible.



(Fred) Honestly, I am not sure you understand what prevenient grace is. You certainly do not understand historic Calvinism.



(fred) Hmmm, so here you say that man has no free will except to either believe or reject Christ. Did Luther teach this? I don't recall such a notion coming through his polemics against Erasmus. Sounds like Romanism my friend.

Fred

Pilgrim,

Thanks for the link to Dr. Beeke's article. There seems to be no difference in the Calvinist and Lutheran understandings of justification by faith alone.


Excellent! But, can you reconcile your statement with that of Covenant in Blood?



1. What is the role of compulsion?
2. Is there or can there be a time difference between regeneration and justification by faith?

fredman,

I think you meant to say, "no free will to either believe or reject Christ." No, Luther rejects the free will of the Romanists:


Council of Trent


Smalcald Articles, Martin Luther

Sadly, our Pelagian world, the Papists, the Arminians, and even some Calvinists and Lutherans are supporting the fiction of free will introduced into the church by Satan.

Sorry, but I haven't a clue what "Covenant in Blood" is. It must be a Lutheran thing. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" />

I am using "compulsion" here to describe "Irresistable Grace", i.e., between the creating of the new nature, which of itself is naturally drawn to God and the influence of the Holy Spirit, the regenerate man is infallibly brought to the place where he repents of his sins and takes hold of Christ by faith. (cf. Rom 8:30; Jh 6:37, 44, 45, 64, 65; Acts 13:48; 18:27; Gal 1:15, 16; 2Tim 1:9; Heb 9:15; Jam 1:18; 2Pet 1:3; 1Jh 5:10)

Although there are those who would hold that conversion may follow regeneration by an extended period of time, I hold that conversion follows immediately after regeneration. In regeneration, spiritual life is created in the soul (Eph 2:3, 5; Col 2:13) for the very purpose that the sinner may comprehend his need of Christ and seek after Him. Faith is that element of spiritual life as breath is to physical life. Thus it is infallibly true that when a child is born physically, the very first sign of life is that it breathes. Likewise, when a sinner is born from above (regeneration), the very first indication and expression of that spiritual life is a believing upon Christ; the "exhalation" of that faith which resides in the soul. For this was the very purpose of the giving of life, that the individual would be reconciled to God through the remission of sins which is only found in the Lord Christ.

In His Grace,

Pilgrim,


Sorry, I was quoting from "The Highway" old hand "Covenant in Blood" post on page 7. I assume he's a Calvinist. Lutherans aren't big on covenants.


1. If Regeneration is instantaneous and conversion follows immediately after regeneration, how can it be resisted?
2. I take it that the period of time between regeneration and conversion ,if any, is not an essential feature of Calvinism (i.e., in the confessions)?

Ah, so "Covenant in Blood" that you were referring to is actually, "CovenantInBlood" a username of an individual here. Glad that this point, at least, is clear. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" />

It can't! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" /> When a person is regenerated, the new spiritual nature created has an insatiable predisposition to seek God and to be reconciled by faith in Christ. In fact, the sinner who has been given this new nature (born from above) will do anything it takes to find salvation in Christ. (Matt 11:12) Conversion cannot be resisted because not only does the new nature strongly desire it, but it has been preordained by God that it shall find it. (Jh 6:37; 17:2, 11, 24; Acts 13:48; Rom 8:30; Eph 1:4-13; et al)

I have already stated that there are some Calvinists who do hold that there can be an extended period of time between regeneration and conversion. However, they are in the minority. What you are wondering re: "an essential feature of Calvinism", is a question I don't understand. What I do know is that if and when there is life, it is evidenced. There is no such thing in Scripture as a "living-dead" individual. One is either spiritually alive or one is spiritually dead. In either case, that condition will be expressed to one degree or another.

In His Grace,

Pilgrim,



Irresistable grace after conversion seems a little incongruent for someone named "simul iustus et peccator". Isn't all sin resistance to grace? Instead of trusting in our new nature to find salvation in Christ, shouldn't we trust in Christ alone and avail ourselves of the Word through which the Holy Spirit works to sanctify us and keep us in repentance and faith?


It is an essential feature of Lutheranism because regeneration and justification by faith are treated as a single event in the confessions. If someone holds a different view, he should not call himself Lutheran.



Formula of Concord, Solid Declaration, Righteousness of Faith

Shouldn't Calvinist confessions include a similar statement? It appears to me that the Calvinist confessions have opened the door to synergism where man is not just involved in justification but is an active participant.

Sorry, but once again I haven't a clue what you are talking about here. And my name isn't [color:"purple"]simul iustus et peccator[/color] . . . surely you recognize the slogan which was made so infamously popular by Martin Luther, you know, that short, plump Roman Catholic monk who took on the entire Roman establishment over the matter of indulgences and justification by faith alone? What "irresistible grace after conversion"??? The discussion concerned pre/post regeneration, not conversion. And who said anything about trusting in a new nature?? HELLO?? Remember, I am a classic biblical Christian (Calvinist) who holds tenaciously to Sola Gratia, Sola Fide and Solos Christos! To be perfectly frank with you, after reading all your posts here it seems more than evident that you are NOT familiar with the writings and doctrines of the Protestant Reformers, particularly with the Doctrines of Grace, aka: Calvinism. Perhaps you might enjoy or at least benefit from reading through some of the 1000+ articles on The Highway website. At least you would become informed of what we here actually believe.

Some of the Reformers used the term "regeneration" in a much broader sense than what is used typically today, which is much narrower. That is, when they spoke of regeneration, they were actually speaking of conversion, although making it very clear that coming to Christ for justification is something which is always consequent to regeneration, aka: the new birth. For several hundred years, however, theologically we speak of regeneration in the "narrow" sense, that is regeneration refers to the sovereign and secret work of the Holy Spirit Who raises the spiritually dead soul to life. There are many synonyms used throughout Scripture to describe this one-time event, e.g., "circumcise the heart" (Deut 30:6), "a heart of flesh" (Ezek 11:19; 36:26; cp Jer 32::39), "born again/anew/from above" (Joh 3:3, 5), "new creature" (2Cor 5:17; Gal 6:15), et al. We distinguish between that sovereign and secret work of God in the creating of the new nature from which a new disposition flows and which moves a person to seek God in Christ by faith. Conversion, on the other hand is the direct consequence of that new birth/regeneration in which the sinner is active; i.e., the evidence of the new nature is expressed in repentance and faith. God does not repent nor believe on behalf of any man. Remember, we hold tenaciously to Sola FIDE... i.e., it is through the instrumentality of faith that one is reconciled to God, united to Christ, after which one is justified and thus receives the adoption as sons. (Rom 3:22, 28, 30; 5:1; Gal 3:11, 22, 24, 26) Let me put it this way..... regeneration, in and of itself, does not and is incapable of saving a soul. It is only through faith, the reaching out and taking hold of Christ Jesus does one receive justification. A regenerated sinner WILL INFALLIBLY believe on Christ. Though these are two separate acts, they are inseparable. Both are of grace, but the latter doesn't exclude the active participation of the individual.

How many times are you going to infer or even accuse Calvinists of holding to synergism, semi-Pelagianism, Arminianism, free-willism, ad nauseam. You really are ignorant of what Calvinists believe, aren't you?? I could return something similar in kind and accuse you of being a hyper-Calvinist for you exclude the necessity of a sinner repenting and believing on Christ for salvation. I could also accuse you of synergism, for you make Baptism a work, it being necessary to bring about regeneration. Please inform yourself of what you consider to be your "opponent's" position before making silly comments. You will save yourself much embarrassment in the future.

Again, the sinner is incontrovertibly an active participant in his conversion. It is the sinner who repents. It is the sinner who believes on Christ. Although these acts are irresistible, for they are the fruit of regeneration, they are done most freely and willingly by the individual... NOT GOD! They are indeed the "works of God" (Jh 6:29; 6:44, 65; Acts 5:31; 11:18; et al) but they are also that which the sinner must do. (Mk 2:17; Lk 13:3; 15:7; 24:47; 19:4; Jh 1:12, 13; 3:16; 8:24; 11:40; 17:20; et al). How many have erred in giving too much emphasis to God's sovereignty over man's responsibility? How many more have erred in giving far too much emphasis to man's responsibility to the actual denial of God's sovereignty? Both are true.. Salvation is the Lord AND repent and believe upon Christ and you shall be saved.

As Martin Luther said, the doctrine of justification by faith is like a razor's edge; it is very easy to fall off either side. And to quote another Lutheran theologian, Martin Chemnitz (1522-1586):

ON JUSTIFICATION:

This unique doctrine in a special way distinguishes the church from all other nations and religions....[Justification] is the pinnacle and chief bulwark of all teaching and of the Christian religion itself; if this is obscured, adulterated, or subverted, it is impossible to retain purity of doctrine in other loci. On the other hand, if this locus is securely retained, all idolatrous ravings, superstitions and other corruptions are thereby destroyed (Loci Theologici II, p. 443)

In His Grace,

Pilgrim,


I'm here to learn not to teach. I will back off and study your referenced articles.

That sounds like a very wise decision on your part! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> You DID enjoy Beeke's article on "Justification by Faith Alone" and even said that we are in total agreement on that matter. Who knows, you may find that we agree on far more than you now realize. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" /> You might like to start here: Calvinism and the Reformed Faith. If you are looking for books, articles and/or sermons on a specific subject, do make use of the Advanced Search feature. Put phrases in "quotes". <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,