"5. Jesus dwells among those who call on him without having known him; among those who, after beginning to know him, have lost him through no fault of their own; among those who seek him in sincerity of heart, while coming from different cultural and religious contexts (cf. Lumen gentium, n. 16). As disciples and friends of Jesus, become agents of dialogue and collaboration with those who believe in a God who rules the universe with infinite love be ambassadors of the Messiah you have found and known in his "dwelling", the Church, so that many more young people of your age may be able to follow in his footsteps: their way lighted by your fraternal charity and by the joy in your eyes that have contemplated Christ."
Plus, from Vatican II's Dogmatic Constitution on the Church:
"Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Savior wills that all men be saved. Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience." http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac1000.asp
Ma'am, thank you for clarifying, but I must pose the question, as I have previously to Pilgrim, do you see any reason to disbelieve that this Catholic belief (and I am aware of it) is not based on Romans 1:19,20 in that there are those who can embrace God whose only witness of God is creation itself?
Or can you locate a specific Catholic belief that once one has heard the gospel and refuses it, they may still be saved?
As St. Paul says:
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Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent. (Acts 17:30)
So far, Ma'am, you have yet to expose any scandalous Catholic belief, but I'm sure you'll keep trying. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />
It's interesting. I made this exact point in another thread and it, as well, has never received reply. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Banghead.gif" alt="" />
Ma'am, perhaps I can pose this as a statement rather than a question. Yes the Catholic Church does believe that people can be saved without hearing the gospel, their only witness being creation itself.(based on Romans 1:19,20)
But this does not infer that once someone hears the gospel and rejects it, that there is a "second chance" after death. As Paul brought the gospel to Athens He said,
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Surely God has overlooked these times of ignorance...
the Athenians were as yet untouched by Christ's gospel but were sincere in their attempt to reach God as Paul acknowledges:
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(Acts 17:23)Therefore, there is One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you.
But again Paul makes clear now that he brought the gospel:
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but now (God) commands all men everywhere to repent.)
Now does the the Catholic beliefs you were questioning make more sense in the light of this biblical passage?
by the way, it seems you don't know how to make quotes, let me show you how really quick:
to start your quote type the word- quote -and put it in brackets [ ]. so it should look like this [ quote ] (only without the spaces)
When you finish your quote type- /quote -and again put it in brackets [ ]. so it should look like this [ /quote ] (only without the spaces) Preview your post and you should see your quote in a quote box like the ones above. Give it a try! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />
Grace be with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen. Eph 6:24
It's interesting. I made this exact point in another thread and it, as well, has never received reply. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Banghead.gif" alt="" />
Rather then go hunt for it, could I have a link? I'd like to read it.
Of course it won't be answered or dealt with in a straightforward manner (although it might now that I've posted this) because to do so wouldbe to either commit logical suicide or admit that apostolic succession is errant.
....the RCC to teach, at least during recent years.
However, I believe the quotes (and thanks for the suggestion as to how to make 'em behave properly) previously provided, particularly the one by Eugene IV, shows this has not been the continuous teaching of the RCC.
I don't expect to convince you of it, though it's clear to me. ;->
Of course it won't be answered or dealt with in a straightforward manner (although it might now that I've posted this) because to do so wouldbe to either commit logical suicide or admit that apostolic succession is errant.
I don't know that it will be answered due to the fact that the problem has already been posed and unanswered. Not only was the problem unanswered, the exact same logic that brought about the unresolved issue is the basis for this entire thread. It is intellectually dishonest to base an entire argument on a proof that is yet to be provided.
catholicsoldier confesses: Yes the Catholic Church does believe that people can be saved without hearing the gospel, their only witness being creation itself.(based on Romans 1:19,20)
I realize that I shouldn't be amazed that you and the Roman State Church contorts the inspired written Word in this way to teach something that clearly doesn't exist. So, let's do a quick "Exegesis 101" course re: Romans 1:19,20, always holding fast to the truism, "A text out of context is nothing more than pretext!"
Romans 1:16-22 (ASV) "For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,"
Again, this will be extremely brief, but I belief sufficient to expose the glaring error of Rome's teaching concerning the ability of anyone to be saved by knowledge derived from natural revelation. So, 1) Paul begins by stating right off, that it is the GOSPEL that is the power of God unto salvation. For from the knowledge of Christ in the Gospel, men see their sinfulness, need of redemption and reconciliation with God and the necessity to trust in Christ by faith. (vss. 16 and 17) 2) It is the wrath of God (judgment implied) against all ungodliness which is revealed in the natural order. Notice that Paul does not even hint that salvation from sin and/or judgment is to be found in the things which are seen with the eyes. This wrath of God is manifested because of what is to be gleaned from the natural creation. But even more so, what is "natural revealed" concerning God is further manifested in them, i.e., by nature, all men know the existence of the true living God and this inner knowledge was given them by God Himself! (v. 19) 3) Paul now tells us what this knowledge consists; namely His "everlasting power and divinity". And because this knowledge is known by all men, they are without excuse. It is thus incontrovertible, that by this knowledge, all men are held responsible for their perverseness and will be held accountable. There is no defense any man can offer in his/her behalf for distorting, ignoring and/or rejecting what they inherently know by divine revelation. (v. 20) 4) Lastly, Paul brings forth the evidence against all men by which they are under judgment. They, knowing the revealed truth about God, which is clearly seen in the things that are made, refuse to act accordingly, but rather live out their lives in rebellion and rejection and substitute this truth for a lie; i.e., they entire lives are a contradiction to everything they know is true concerning their Creator and Sustainer. (cf. Eph 4:17-19 and cp. Gomer in the book of Hosea).
It is absolutely irrefutable that men are under judgment, according to the testimony of Paul, due to the fact that they know God from natural revelation and reject it. There is nothing in Romans 1:19, 20 to suggest that salvation is attainable outside the Gospel and by believing upon the Redeemer Christ Who is only known in the Gospel. Now, will you please show me how this passage teaches what you and Rome believe?
Well, James, if you're reading this, I very much look forward to hearing a response from you on this matter of apostolic qualifications ForSBCReform and I have been talking about.
Until you do that, it would be the height of intellectual and spiritual dishonesty to post anything else on this whole subject.
I'm also really looking forward to a response to my earlier post.
Well.....sir. Though opinions are expressed routinely in the course of debate, and though we question each other's "facts" often, and though I note you offer a threat instead of rebuttal, I will, in the future, refrain from using a specific number to describe Protestantism's troubling and unbiblical "rugged individualism."
Opinions are not facts. Your comparison is illogical. And yes, I am questioning this fact. Offer evidence or admit it's pure hype. It is Rome that is individual in many claims, this topic only being one. You may use a specific number, but you'll need to offer more than exaggerated rhetoric. I understand the need to hype the numbers to make your case look better. However, this is dishonest. How about if I take the true number of child molesting priests and then multiply it by ten? Then claim it's merely opinion? Let's be true here and avoid the discussion sliding into insults and half truths.
There is no threat. You misunderstand. It was a rebuttal. I claim you can't support yet another fact.
Another issue is your continuing practice of lumping several groups under the reformation that are actually quite distant from anything the reformation was about. Many modern American movements are clsoer to Rome in their beliefs and many fall outside orthodoxy. Deal with the true reformers and leave the reformulaters out.
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I will instead use words such as "numerous", and "countless", which probably better describe this problem.
Numerous may cover it. Countless you would need to support to avoid that hype problem you insist upon repeating. Two things that probably don't do well here, "I say so" and "Rome says so".
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I will do this in the interest of peace and in deferrence to your authority.
Surely wouldn't be fairness or honesty, would it? You have the opportunity to prove your claim.
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Whether you are rightly exercising your authority is between you and those from whom you derive it.
Yup. Emotional appeal noted.
God bless,
william
Last edited by averagefellar; Mon Oct 18, 200411:21 PM.
It is absolutely irrefutable that men are under judgment, according to the testimony of Paul, due to the fact that they know God from natural revelation and reject it. There is nothing in Romans 1:19, 20 to suggest that salvation is attainable outside the Gospel and by believing upon the Redeemer Christ Who is only known in the Gospel. Now, will you please show me how this passage teaches what you and Rome believe? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" />
In His Grace,
Sir, you state your case quite eloquently that man can be condemned singularly on the witness of creation, but you've failed to convince me that the reverse implication isn't also true; especially in light of the passage from Acts that I have twice quoted and you have yet to address.
And you also are misrepresenting my position. I never said that salvation was possible outside of Christ, for such would be a grevious error, for:
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There is no other name under heaven, given among men, by which we must be saved.
As I stated before, the Only channel of God's mercy is the cross, and this applies to Old testament saints as well as us. For we know that animal sacrifices did not suffice to cover sin, but rather alluded to the impeccable sacrifice to come, once and for all, destroying the power of sin.
So what of these Old Testament Saints? Many think they are the spirits in prison that the gospel is preached to. I cannot ascertain one way or the other, but I can say with certainty that all who are saved must come to terms with the cross of Christ Jesus. If it is possible for Old Testament saints to come to this realization post mortem then it is also possible for others who have, like them, attempted to reach God in this life, but failed only by the ommission of the gospel of Christ.
But what does scripture say of these Old Testament saints?:
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"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on earth. (Heb 11:13)
These did not have the gospel, but lived and died "in faith" anticipating the redemption to come, and placed their hope, not in this life, but in the one to come. And even as only few in the Old Testament were saved by a gospel they never heard in life, there would only be few saved by God's mercy (and election) though they are hindered from hearing the the gospel.
Even as the apostles ask: "Are there few that are saved?"
and Jesus responds: "Strive to enter in by the narrow way."
While this conversation has branched off to include this subject of salvation and the gospel, I am still waiting for a response per my last post. I realize you may need time to think about it, but I just want to make sure it doesn't get ignored.
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