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Does Ephesians defeat Dispensationalism? #21530
Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:25 PM
Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:25 PM

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Jesus is not only Lord, but KING! He is the head of all rulers and Kings having complete dominion at the time of the writing and all of the future.

1:19and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church,

We, as the church are seated with Him ruling and reigning with Him was well.

1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places
2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
The promises of the covenant are applied literally to Gentiles within the Church.
2:10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
11Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands-- 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

The removal of the distinction of the Jew and Gentile is stressed!

2:12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God

The building up of the Church is referred to as the building up of the Temple.

2:20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit

The New Testament Church is claimed to have been taught in the Old Testament, just not as clearly.

3:1For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles-- 2assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace that was given to me for you, 3how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. 4When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 6This mystery is[a] that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Christ’s Kingly enthronement is celebrated by the pouring out of gifts upon His Church/Kingdom.

4:8Therefore it says,
"When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men."
9(In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers

Paul teaches that the Kingdom is spiritual rather than Political.

5:5For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

Re: Does Ephesians defeat Dispensationalism? #21531
Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:33 AM
Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:33 AM
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Which form ( or should I say style) of Dispensationalism do you mean? Scofield's? Ryries? Progressive? Pauline? Right now there are so many variations some of which would assert what you are declaring (Progressive) that to say that Ephesians defeats Dispensationalism would be discounted by C. Marvin Pate or Craig A. Blaising.

Because of this I would suggest you define your terms.


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
Re: Does Ephesians defeat Dispensationalism? [Re: Peter] #21532
Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:43 AM
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Scofield's and Ryries.

Progressive may as well be covenant theology IMO. It's that close.

Re: Does Ephesians defeat Dispensationalism? #21533
Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:57 AM
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houseparent said:
Scofield's and Ryries.

Progressive may as well be covenant theology IMO. It's that close.


You might want to include Pauline in that too, but that is just an opine.


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
Re: Does Ephesians defeat Dispensationalism? #21534
Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:03 AM
Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:03 AM
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The whole Bible defeats Dispensationalism of any type <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

I have found the following books to be informative concerning this topic:

Dispensationalism: A Biblical Examination, by J. Patrick Griffin

Dispensationalism: Rightly Dividing the People of God? by Keith Mathison

He Gave Us Stories, by Richard Pratt

The Christ of the Covenants, by O. Palmer Robertson

An Examination of Dispensationalism, by William E. Cox

Why I Left Scofieldism,by William E. Cox

Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth, by John H. Gerstner

Primer on Dispensationalism by John Gerstner

Understanding Dispensationalists, by Vern S. Poythress


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: Does Ephesians defeat Dispensationalism? [Re: J_Edwards] #21535
Mon Feb 07, 2005 7:52 PM
Mon Feb 07, 2005 7:52 PM

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This calls to mind the recent discussion with my assistant pastor, a dispensationalist. We were talking about various passages, and I would answer the best I knew how, and he said "If I accepted covenant theology like you do, there are verses I'd have to explain away."

My answer was "If I accepted premillennial dispensationalism, there are whole books of the Bible I'd have to explain away."

Re: Does Ephesians defeat Dispensationalism? #21536
Mon Feb 07, 2005 10:08 PM
Mon Feb 07, 2005 10:08 PM

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What books would those be?

Re: Does Ephesians defeat Dispensationalism? #21537
Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:45 AM
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Typically anything not written by Paul with the exception of Matthew 24 and Revelations. Hmmm someone remind me the name of the that heretic that excluded books of the Bible in the early church? Sounds similar.


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
Re: Does Ephesians defeat Dispensationalism? [Re: Peter] #21538
Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:46 AM
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Quote
Boanerges said:
Typically anything not written by Paul with the exception of Matthew 24 and Revelations. Hmmm someone remind me the name of the that heretic that excluded books of the Bible in the early church? Sounds similar.


Marcion?


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Re: Does Ephesians defeat Dispensationalism? [Re: CovenantInBlood] #21539
Fri Feb 11, 2005 2:57 AM
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There you go! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/ClapHands.gif" alt="" />


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
Re: Does Ephesians defeat Dispensationalism? [Re: J_Edwards] #21540
Fri Feb 25, 2005 8:02 PM
Fri Feb 25, 2005 8:02 PM

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Quote
J_Edwards said:
The whole Bible defeats Dispensationalism of any type <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

*list excluded for brevity of quote, but noted*


But none of these books deal with PD or interact with it meaningfully (and as yet, to my knowledge, no Covenant Theologian has done so).

Just an observation. Don't count your defeats based on 'old' information.

Re: Does Ephesians defeat Dispensationalism? #21541
Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:14 PM
Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:14 PM
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OS_X These books do deal with the subject at hand if you read them? For instance, He Gave Us Stories lays down a biblical hermeneutic which if embraced it would make it impossible to be a dispensationalist (even PD) as Richard fully embraces a CT hermeneutic. The other books on Dispensationalism clearly refute dispy. I do find it rather <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> that you claim no CT has never dealt with the issue of PD. However, since you are Pre-Mil you would like us to think such is the case. As Vern Poythress states in Understanding Dispensationalists;

Quote
I have personal sympathy and appreciation for the search that progressive dispensationalists have undertaken as they have moved beyond certain features of classic Dispensationalism. I am glad to see the moves that they are making, because they seem to me to be expressing biblical truth more faithfully than before. I appreciate also the irenic tone manifested in their work. However, their position is inherently unstable. I do not think that they will find it possible in the long run to create a safe haven theologically between classic Dispensationalism and covenantal premeillennialism. The forces that there own observations have set in motion will most likely lead to covenantal premillennialism after the pattern of George E. Ladd.

Have you searched the Highway for its articles on eschatology? We have debated this topic here before and ……. Being a theologian, maybe you would like to support your view biblically & completely (Premillennial, Futurist (somewhere between premill-pretrib and historic premill)) or simply expand upon this (from your website)?

Quote
World history is speeding towards its' climax - the physical, bodily, visible return of Christ. In the times immediately before this, the ultimate human expression of evil, the one who is simply known as the antichrist or the man of sin, will become known on earth. He will lead the entire world into worship of himself as god (Revelation 13:1-8, 2 Thess. 2:1-12), finding his demise at the return of Christ in the valley of Meggido (Revelation 19:11-21). This time is known as the great tribulation or the tribulation period. It will be a time of almost unrestrained evil among humanity, but also of God's temporal judgement upon humanity for its' rejection of Him. He will bring catastrophic judgements upon the earth, each increasing in intensity, but humanity as a whole will still not repent and turn from their sins. The scriptures teach that upon His (Christs') return, He will crush all rebellion, set up the beginning of His eternal kingdom, which will last 1000 years. At the start of that 1000 years, Satan will be bound in a bottomless pit, no longer able to tempt the nations. Saints alive when Christ returns will live in their mortal bodies through the 1000 year period. It will be an unprecedented time of peace, justice, prosperity and free from war. At the end of the 1000 years, Satan shall be released for a short season and stir up rebellion among the remaining mortals, only to have them be consumed by fire as they seek to attack the holy city of Christ's reign. From here, Satan will be apprehended and thrown into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:10) and all these who rebelled as well as the other wicked dead that lived prior to the return of Christ will be resurrected and judged (Rev. 20:11-15).

When the grammatical-historical method of interpretation is consistently applied to all scriptures concerning last things, one automatically comes to the conclusion of premillennialism - meaning that Christ will return before the millennium (1000 years) mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6.

In addition, please explain to us in detail what differences you see between DP and CT?


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: Does Ephesians defeat Dispensationalism? [Re: J_Edwards] #21542
Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:55 AM
Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:55 AM

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If you wanna think that a paragraph is 'dealing with' progressive dispensationalism, you're more than welcome to. :lol:

I'll be back in on the other questions soon enough. The Highway isn't one of my frequent posting spots.

Re: Does Ephesians defeat Dispensationalism? #21543
Fri Apr 01, 2005 8:07 AM
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We have some other threads on Dispensationalism and the problems with its theology (discontinuity of the covenants) going if you care to join them. Please review them before responding as we do not need to repeat what has already been posted. Enjoy <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

where's the command?

Fred Malone a dispensationalist?


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: Does Ephesians defeat Dispensationalism? [Re: J_Edwards] #21544
Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:43 AM
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J_Edwards said:
We have some other threads on Dispensationalism and the problems with its theology (discontinuity of the covenants) going if you care to join them. Please review them before responding as we do not need to repeat what has already been posted. Enjoy <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

where's the command?

Fred Malone a dispensationalist?


Joe I have to say that I am really disappointed by this reply. What is spoken of in this particular thread is Scofield/Ryrie view with its two seperate people of God (see this reply) seven dispensations ect... By adding those threads you have just proven at least to my mind that you associate Baptist Covenant Theology to be the same as what Ryrie or Scofield taught, even though it has been repeately pointed out to you that Fred Malone doesn't hold to two seperate people of God which is the sine qua non of Scofield and Ryrie's dispensationalism.


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
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