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Re: Timothy George says we have nothing to worry #25486
Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:06 AM
Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:06 AM
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Quote
Quote

BradJHammond said:

Speratus,
It's obvious that you have a very well developed and elaborate eschatological narrative worked out in your head, complete with dark conspiracies and villains who are so cunningly clever they are always several steps ahead of anyone who might expose them or their insidious secret plans. But so far I have not seen any good Scriptural support or evidence for these speculations; if I may say so, thus far your arguments are all Jenkins and no LaHaye.


Quote

Speratus replied:

Jenkins and LaHaye are unwitting accomplices in a conspiracy begun by the Jesuits hundreds of years ago to overthrow the sound eschatological doctrine of the confessing Reformation churches in favor of a futuristic Antichrist not found in scripture. Judging by the results of a poll on a conservative Reform board, the conspiracy has been quite successful.



Ah, the plot thickens... <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/whatsgoingonhere.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/stupidme.gif" alt="" />
Dan Brown's got nothing on you!
You're just pulling my leg now, right? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/3stooges.gif" alt="" />


[Linked Image]
Re: Timothy George says we have nothing to worry [Re: Adopted] #25487
Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:16 PM
Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:16 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,526
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Pilgrim Offline

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Denny,

You are correct...... what I wrote is rather confusing because I did not state things clearly. What I should have written and which I hope will clear things up for you now is: 1) There is the "spirit of the antichrist", i.e., a general philosophical movement, trend, that epitomizes all that opposes God. 2) There are those who are paradigmatic of this "spirit" in every age; they are many and they are generally leaders, popular, influential, etc. 3) There is a future individual who is designated "THE" antichrist who will all that the "spirit" and the "many" that preceded him typified. In the vernacular, this person will be all these things rolled up into one; the whole ball of wax. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So, what I should have written in regard to the pope is that I believe he exhibits one who is inline with the "spirit of the antichrist" for he really doesn't qualify according to the criteria set forth by the Apostle John in regard to THE big kahuna antichrist.

Lastly, in regard to the Postmil vs. Amil tension you are going through, I can truly understand because the two views have much in common. If I may risk reducing things down it seems to me the proponents of the Postmil position are working with errant definitions, which they have forced upon the Scriptures and thus end up at a different place than the Amil position does. For example, one of the most important terms for the Postmil folks is "victory, victorious, victor". They are want to define these terms "quantitatively", i.e., according to numbers. The one who has the greater "number" wins; is victorious. Thus, they reason, if Christ is said to be victorious, then it must be that the greater number will fall to Him and thus there will be more individuals in the "saved" camp than in the "unsaved" camp. However, those in the Amil camp, of which I am one, argue that the definition of these terms used by the Posties is not to be found in Scripture but it is presumed and forced and thus the unfortunate and erroneous conclusions of their view concerning the number of elect, the "Golden Age", etc. Rather, these terms are to be defined "qualitatively", i.e., that the "victor" is one who succeeds in the objective he set out to accomplish. In the biblical case of Christ, it was His goal to fulfill all that the Father gave Him to do, i.e., to save all the elect in the world. This He did in His active and passive obedience which was demonstrated to all the world in his resurrection from the dead. Secondly, the Scriptures speak in myriad places that those who are chosen of God are a "remnant", i.e., a small piece of the whole. (cf. Isa 10:20-23; Rom 9:27; 11:4-6) It was God's eternal decree to save but a small number of Adam's fallen race to His glory. It appears to me that this is also demonstrated by Paul when he argues that God's promise to save Israel had not failed but rather those questioning God's faithfulness to Israel had failed to understand what God's promise actually entailed. In fact he uses himself as the paradigm and says that since he himself had received grace as a Jew, that alone shows that God has kept His promise. (Rom 11:1ff)

Here are some of the better books, IMHO, that offer a solid defense of the Amillennial view:

- The Promise of the Future, by Cornelius Venema (see a couple of chapters here: Eschatology.
- More Than Conquerors, by William Hendriksen (commentary on Revelation)
- Waiting for His Coming, by Lewis Neilson (a few articles at the same link as above for Venema)
- The Pauline Eschatology, by Geerhardus Vos (with an excellent chapter on the AntiChrist)
- A Case for Amillennialism, by Kim Riddlebarger
- The Bible and the Future, by Anthony Hoekema
- Inspired Principles of Prophetic Interpretation, by John Wilmot
- Interpreting Prophesy, by Philip Edgecumbe Hughes

In His Grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: Timothy George says we have nothing to worry [Re: Pilgrim] #25488
Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:04 PM
Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:04 PM
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Pilgrim,

Thanks so much for this clarification and I think valuable advice.

I really was considering the possibility of swearing off eschatology <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Banghead.gif" alt="" /> and organizing a new support group called EA (Eschatolics Anonymous). But now I think I will go back and study this issue again. I already have Hendricksen's and Hoekema's books in my library that I read a few years ago. It is amazing sometimes that one can get much more out of a book with a second or even third reading. With theology I think it is often due to the related knowledge gained during the interim.

As far as the pope is concern would you admit that he might be the biggest Kahuna so far, as far as the "many antichrists" go? Personally I might give that honor to Mohammed.

Denny

"inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these, My brethren, you did it to Me."


Denny

Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
Re: Timothy George says we have nothing to worry [Re: Adopted] #25489
Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:43 PM
Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:43 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,526
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

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Pilgrim  Offline

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Quote
Adopted said:
As far as the pope is concern would you admit that he might be the biggest Kahuna so far, as far as the "many antichrists" go? Personally I might give that honor to Mohammed.

I think Mohammed would have to rate a top spot. But again, I find it very difficult to include the RC Pope as being "one" of the antichrists since his theological views disqualify him; denial of the Trinity, deity of Christ, bodily return of Christ, etc. Yet I do believe that he can be seen as one who is of the "spirit" of the antichrist, i.e., one who is opposed to true Christianity and through error and deceit has and will continue to deceive many.

BTW, debating eschatology is one of those doctrines which I tend to shy away from due to the deep-seated views and passionate disposition of some. If you haven't noticed, eschatology can reach cultic levels and to question someone's views invariably can result in a declaration of war. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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Re: Timothy George says we have nothing to worry [Re: BradJHammond] #25490
Thu Jun 09, 2005 5:08 PM
Thu Jun 09, 2005 5:08 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,546
Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Tom Offline
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Tom  Offline
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Brad

My answer was not to say which side of the issue is the correct one. In fact for Protestants it is probably a lot more comfortable to have Ratizinger as pope, rather than a more reform minded pope.
However, a movement like ECT (Evangelicals and Catholics Together) probably would not have started in the first place if there had been a reform minded pope in office.
After all, can you see a conservative Christian like JI Packer involved with ECT with a reform minded pope?

The bottom line however to me is that the election of Ratizinger as pope is all part of God's sovereign plan.

Tom

Re: Timothy George says we have nothing to worry [Re: Pilgrim] #25491
Thu Jun 09, 2005 5:36 PM
Thu Jun 09, 2005 5:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 591
Washington State
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Pilgrim said:

Quote

If you haven't noticed, eschatology can reach cultic levels and to question someone's views invariably can result in a declaration of war.


Indeed I have noticed, and not to long ago. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/argue.gif" alt="" />

I had to edit this in order to bring a thought to consideration. In light of what is going on right now in the Middle East, eschatological beliefs may indeed BE the cause of war! Think Zionism, Chiliasm and Premillennial Dispensationalism.

Denny

Roms 3:22-24

Last edited by Adopted; Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:07 PM.

Denny

Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
Re: Timothy George says we have nothing to worry [Re: BradJHammond] #25492
Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:03 PM
Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:03 PM

A
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Quote
BradJHammond said:
Quote

Speratus replied:

Jenkins and LaHaye are unwitting accomplices in a conspiracy begun by the Jesuits hundreds of years ago to overthrow the sound eschatological doctrine of the confessing Reformation churches in favor of a futuristic Antichrist not found in scripture. Judging by the results of a poll on a conservative Reform board, the conspiracy has been quite successful.



Ah, the plot thickens... <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/whatsgoingonhere.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/stupidme.gif" alt="" />
Dan Brown's got nothing on you!
You're just pulling my leg now, right? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/3stooges.gif" alt="" />


So, it's mere coincidence that most Protestants have abandoned the doctrines of their Reformation fathers and now share the same view as the Jesuit Counter-Reformationists?

You're just pulling my leg, right? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/3stooges.gif" alt="" />


Quote
Left Behind by the Jesuits by Steve Wohlberg[/b]
Jesuit Futurism has almost completely changed the beliefs of Protestant Historicism. “The proper eschatological term for the view most taught today is Futurism, which fuels the confusion of Dispensationalism. The futuristic school of Bible prophecy came from the Roman Catholic Church, specifically her Jesuit theologians. . . However the alternative has been believed for centuries. It is known as Historicism.”14 “It is a matter for deep regret that those who hold and advocate the Futurist system at the present day, Protestants as they are for the most part, are thus really playing into the hands of Rome, and helping to screen the Papacy from detection as the Antichrist.”15

Who Had It Right?

Who had the right theology—those who were burned at the stake for Jesus Christ, or those who lit the fires? Who had the true Bible doctrine—the martyrs or their persecutors? Who had the correct interpretation of the Antichrist—those who died trusting in the blood of Christ, or those who shed the blood of God’s dear saints? Dear friend, Jesuit Futurism is now at war with the Protestant Reformation by denying its power-packed application of prophecy to the Vatican. “The futurist school of Bible prophecy was created for one reason, and one reason only: to counter the Protestant Reformation!”16

Last edited by speratus; Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:11 PM.
Re: Timothy George says we have nothing to worry [Re: Tom] #25493
Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:12 AM
Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:12 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 41
South Africa
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Hi all

Just recieved another very applicable piece from Grace Gems (http://www.gracegems.org). Pay special attention to the last paragraph. I think that paragraph sums up exactly what the RCC is all about.

"A decent, flowery, down-hill
way to eternal destruction!"

(John Angell James, "Christian Hope" 1859)

Christ is . . .
the supreme object of a true Christian's love,
the chief source of his felicity,
the highest end of his life.

The first object of a Christian's desire, pursuit
and expectation--is the salvation of his soul.

Our great business on earth--is to fit for heaven.

Our main concern in time--is to prepare for eternity.

The world is, indeed, a very dangerous foe to the
believer. To very, very many, it is the most destructive
one. They are not so likely to be subdued by 'open vice'
as by worldly-mindedness.

Worldliness is the sin of the age, and has deeply
infected the church of Christ.

"Do not love the world or anything in the world.
If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father
is not in him." 1 John 2:15

This verse ought to ring through all Christendom,
and make the ears of millions tingle--and their
hearts to palpitate with fear and alarm!

What is the world?

Not merely open sin and vice, profligacy, idolatry,
infidelity or heresy. Oh no! The world contains many
things besides the lust of the eye, the lust of the
flesh, and the pride of life--things . . .
more decent,
more innocent,
more rational,
more commendable,
than these vile objects!

Everything on earth, however fair, laudable and
excellent in itself--everything besides God, is the
world.

Your business is the world,
your family is the world,
your comfortable home is the world,
the wife of your bosom is the world,
the children whom God has given you are the world.

"What! then," you exclaim, "are we not to love these?"
Yes, in proper degrees--but not more than God. You are
not to seek your highest happiness from them. You are
not to be more solicitous to secure them, than heaven.
It is of a 'supreme love' which the apostle speaks.

"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than Me is
not worthy of Me; anyone who loves his son or daughter
more than Me is not worthy of Me." Matthew 10:37

Christian professors, there is need to have these solemn,
yet righteous demands, sent with a voice of thunder into
your places of business and scenes of domestic comfort.
You have need to be told that . . .
all this engrossing solicitude about business;
all this eager haste to be rich;
all this ambition for larger houses;
all this taste for elegance, show and fashion;
all this competition for name and fame,
which leads to a neglect of salvation, to departure from
God, to indifference to heaven--is the love of the world,
which is incompatible with the love of the Father!
And not less so . . .
that supreme concern about domestic enjoyment,
that taste for fashionable amusements, or even
that more refined and simple love of home-bred delights,
which leaves out God, salvation, heaven and eternity!

Here, here, I repeat, is your peril.

Here the enemy with which you have to do battle!

It is not vice.

It is not profligacy.

It is worldly-mindedness!

Do we not see mere professors throwing
themselves wholly--body, soul, and spirit . . .
into their trade,
into the cherished objects of their ambition,
into their entire devotedness to a worldly life.

In these things, and for them, they live!
These things . . .
bind round and overgrow their heart,
stifle all serious thoughts,
smother all heavenly desires.

The road that leads to destruction is broad enough
to comprise many parallel paths. And there is one path
crowded with professors of religion, walking in company,
with cheerful appearance, and elegant attire, and elastic
step--but still walking to perdition! Oh, yes, there is a
way 'through the church'--a decent, flowery, down-hill
way to eternal destruction, and there are many who
take that road!


[color:"blue"]
~ The worth & excellence of a man is measured by the object of his love. That is why we make God the object of our love! ~
[/color]

Re: Timothy George says we have nothing to worry [Re: Pilgrim] #25494
Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:42 AM
Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 41
Kingston, Jamaica
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Delivered Offline
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Delivered  Offline
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Who is the Head of the Church? Is it Jesus the Christ or is it our leaders that have been appointed by whatever ritual or procedure? Constantine while seemingly professing Christianity as the true Religion, placed himself in charge of the Christian movement (the replacing Jesus as the Head so to speak) and proceeded to carry out his own agenda, many regarded him as God led and many still do. The problem with this concept is only Jesus the Christ is declared as the Head of the true Church. The Holy Spirit is declared as the link between those who believe and the Ascended Saviour and based on the evidence in the Bible those declaring the Words of the Saviour through the intervention of the Holy Spirit of God are established with the Power of the Living God. It would be quite easy to avoid those claiming other things than those established in the Bible if we were humble and read the Bible expecting the Author to teach us through the link of His Holy Spirit, instead of Intellectual prowess only ascribed to a few.

The office of the Pope in itself is not established in God's word, if it is then I wish someone would direct me to this new passage. There is a spirit that has worked overtime to create errors in or reasoning and assist us to follow a path that leads us away from the Living God and this Spirit is declared as the Spirit of the Anti-Christ in the Bible. Many Churches whether they fall within the Reformist group or whether they stick to the original Roman Catholic precepts simply choose to follow the teachings of men which are mostly errors as opposed to following the direct teachings of God through Bible Study and Prayer and hearing the Word as spoken by one inpired by God whose words will be confirmed in the scriptures and establish in the the Power of God.

It seems to me that the way of the Lord Jesus requires due diligence and humbleness and we get no credit or boost from self inflating displays of intellect and fleshly performances only God is Glorified. All of us need to be diligent in our study of the Word and our discussions should seek to uplift and improve each other instead of destroying or sealing the condemnation of the other. Remember "All have sinned and fall short of the glory" so we need to let our lights shine so that it may shine a light into the darkness of many who are on a path to destruction. If we continue along the path of promoted Intellectual prowess which involves a fewer number of persons over the Plan of God which includes His Love for the people in the World then since God cannot fail we may find ourselves on the outside of His Plan so we will have failed. Let Good overcome us and go before us so that the bad around us will be exposed in a way more powerful than our words. Just my two cents.

Last edited by Delivered; Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:04 AM.
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