The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum FYI - 50 Most Influential Churches

The article

Just thought it was interesting.

Sad is what that is. You notice how many members Saddleback has (50,000), and not even half of them attend weekly services (23,000)!

It appears to be an overwhelmingly bad list.

Indeed, this is very sad! Once again the "most influential" are ranked by the nation’s fastest growing churches and churches with more than 2,000 weekend attendance. The ministry of the Holy Spirit (the influencer) has been replaced by statistics. Articles like this are disheartening to say the least ...

I agree, Joe, and when this article is juxstaposed with this article The Worst of Times it really shows the nature of the problems within the church today and the need for a New Reformation.

<SMACK! upside the head> Wipe that smile off your face number 14.

Schuller's such a creep, isn't he?

John,

It's interesting that they are called the 50 most influencial churches but the measurement they rely on isn't even biblical. It's just numbers!


These measurements are all referring to business models not the marks of a true church. If churches are to be recognized as influential simply by these measurements then we might as well use books on how to grow your business.


Wes <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />

There seems to be a paucity of Lutheran or Reformed churches among the Big 50. Piper is a Reformed Baptist, right? And he’s probably the most Reformed on the list. Keller and Kennedy are PCA, Kallestad’s church is Lutheran (although you’d never know it), Tewell I’ve never heard of but I believe the church is PCUSA as is University Pres. In Seattle. So there is at least some Reformation influence among these churches. But still, our ideas are not attracting the masses who still prefer to have their ears tickled. Why is this? Is it just the nature of the USA and our need to be entertained, or due to our self-absorbed culture that wants to hear about how Jesus came to give their lives meaning and purpose? Or because Reformation churches aren’t aggressively evangelizing new members while they watch their old members leave in favor of mainline evangelical churches where they can get their needs met? What are your ideas?

I'm somewhat surprised that MacArthur's, Swindoll's, and Evan's churches were not on the list.

I think unregeneracy is the most likely culprit.

Relztrah,

I see it as "normal" and this normality consists of a two-part problem: 1) The majority of churches are not preaching the true biblical gospel and haven't for decades, perhaps for the last 150 years. Another gospel (Gal 1:7-9), another Jesus and another Spirit (2Cor 11:4) are being preached. Thus even the saints of God are being starved for real food. (Hos 4:6) 2) All mankind are born spiritual dead and thus it is only natural for people to be attracted to everything but the truth and to live a life of holiness before the Lord, worshipping Him in spirit and truth. Entertainment is what they find attractive and fulfilling and thus you find so many churches giving them what they want to hear so as to increase their numbers.

See here: No Compromise, by C.H. Spurgeon.

And here: Feeding Sheep or Amusing Goats, by C.H. Spurgeon.

Lastly, it would be erroneous to think that God is some kind of vending machine where you insert the correct change and you are guaranteed to get what you want. In short, even when a church has a faithful preacher of the Word, the Elders are administering the sacraments aright and church disciple is being practiced, any fruit that results is ultimately determined by God and His mercy and grace. (1Cor 3:7) Reformation, i.e., returning to the "Old Gospel" is the responsibility of the churches. (Hos 4:6) and the people to walk accordingly. (Jer 6:16) But revival is at the sole discretion of the Living God Who saves according to His own will. (Eph 1:4-13; Rom 8:29, 30; 9:6ff; et al)

1 Timothy 4:1-3 (ASV) "But the Spirit saith expressly, that in later times some shall fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons, through the hypocrisy of men that speak lies, branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron; forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by them that believe and know the truth."

2 Timothy 4:1-4 (ASV) "I charge [thee] in the sight of God, and of Christ Jesus, who shall judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word; be urgent in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside unto fables."

Romans 9:27 (ASV) "And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved:"

Romans 11:5 (ASV) "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."

In His Grace,

I too was struck by the lack of reformed churches on the list, but I can't say I was surprised. It is a bit disheartening though. While I was in the US, I attended a PCA church that I felt was a really great church. I think that Scripture was faithfully taught each week and the focus was on God and Christ and not man. I do think the music side of the service could have been a little more reverential than it was. During the five years I attended the church I think the size of the congregation basically doubled. So, there are definitely "Reformation churches" in the US that are growing and evangelizing new members.

Still, we shouldn't fall into the trap of measuring the effectiveness of a church by how fast it is growing or how many new "believers" it baptizes each year. I mean, if there is a church in a small country town of 500 people, the gospel could be faithfully proclaimed each week in a truly God-centered service. The church could be having a dramatic impact on the lives of the members each week, and yet, there would me no hope for it to make this list. Because the town is small, there is also really no chance for it's membership to increase from year to year either.

I think that one reason that Reformation churches may not be growing is not because they aren't aggressively evangelizing new members or meeting members needs, but that when people are presented with the true Gospel, it is just not as attractive as a lot of the self-help gospels wrapped up in biblical language that a lot of the churches on the list teach. Plus, many people, whether they realize it or not, are gowing to church to be entertained, and a truly God-centered reformed type of service is probably not entertaining by the standards of our culture. I don't think this is an area where the churh should try to meet the culture. As for people leaving reformed churches to have their needs met, I wonder what their main purpose in attending church is in the first place. I cannot see our needs being met any better than having the Scriptures explained and taught truthfully each week.

All that being said, there are of course many areas where reformed churches need reforming. Even the best reformed churches are composed of sinful people and have many problems. We can definitely do a better of job of being more sensitive to the needs of the people in the church.

Well, I ran out of time, so I'll end here.

John

I think that this is not often said and only half believed even among the reformed. It's so easy ask the question "what must we do to impact the community with the gospel?" and then immediately fall into the mindset of "how do WE make this happen?" and start thinking of outreach programs instead of going before the Lord, confessing our sins, the sins of our church, and the sins of our community and praying for refreshment from the Lord and revival.

I've just read the Memoirs of Jonathan Edwards which gives an account of the Great Awakening in America. What I noticed is that God raised up men who preached the whole counsel of God with passion, conviction, and expectation (and without compromise) in the power of the Spirit and the people's response was much like that of the men of Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost. The preaching of the Word was received with conviction and awe because of the work of the Spirit.

I think if we want our churches to be "influencial" we need to pray for our pastors to be filled with the Spirit and so be enabled and equipped to preach the Word of God without compromise and for Him to send His Spirit make effectual the preaching of His Word in the ears of the listeners. And that He would make us faithful servants of God.

We could count the number of unreached and uncomitted people we have shared the gospel with and erect a scoreboard. No, I'm not joking. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/3stooges.gif" alt="" />

Just because other churches teach for itching ears does not mean we should. The only way to counter a lie is to tell the truth.

Why should numbers matter. Should we not more be concerened with telling them the truth no matter much it hurts their feelings. The church is not in competition with McDonalds.