The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Question on predestination

I don't understand the concept of predestination. Does it mean that God has already elected those he want to save? Is there any point for me in trying to be saved. Does it mean that no matter what I do or believe, I cannot be saved unless God has already elected me from the foundation of the world? Does it mean I cannot change (in fact even God cannot change his mind since he has already decided on my fate) my eternal state since my fate is already sealed.

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Welcome, cjones! I hope you find your time on the board instructive and encouraging!

You wrote:


Yes, it does. But before we can understand that, we must see that God is a holy God, we all are by nature rebels against God, and if God did not have an elect, no one would be saved because of our own stubborness of heart.

You wrote:


Are you saying you are not saved? If not, why not? Please don't think I am contradicting all I just said, but the reason people don't come to Christ does not lie with God, it lies with man. God holds us responsible for our rebellion. When the apostle Peter was asked, "What must I do to be saved?" he didn't say "Nothing, you can do absolutely nothing" (although apart from God we can do nothing). "Rather, Scripture is full of what is required of all of us if we are to be saved (and if we desire to be saved, it is God who has given us that desire):"

Acts 2:21- "And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

John 3
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Romans 10:9- "if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

Acts 3:19- "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord"

John 6
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”


As one old preacher put it, the question isn't "Am I elect?" but "Am I a sinner?" The sacrifice of Christ is sufficient to all who come to Him in true, saving faith. Election is not an excuse to not be reconciled to God. There is no one who truly has come to Christ for salvation that has ever been turned away.

Welcome to the Discussion Board

Yes, from eternity, God in His infinite and perfect wisdom predestined and elected some from Adam's fallen race to be redeemed in Christ. (cf. Eph 1:4-11; Rom 8:29, 30; 9:11-24)

Yes, for it is the [preceptive] will of God that ALL men (sinners) repent and believe on Christ. (cf. Act 17:30)

Yes and no. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> The fact is that ALL are born sinners, i.e., they are guilty before God and under His wrath and condemnation. And, ALL are born spiritual dead (cf. Gen 6:4; 8:21; Ps 14:1-4; Eccl 9:3; Jer 17:9; Matt 15:18, 19; Rom 8:7, 8; 1Cor 2:14; Eph 2:1-3; 4:17-19). Thus NO MAN seeks after God (cf. Rom 3:11) because they hate God (cf. Jh 3:19, 20; 7:7; 15:23, 24). Thus, until... and not before the Spirit of God regenerates them (new birth), NO MAN can desire God nor come to Christ in faith. (cf. Jh 6:44, 65) Secondly, nothing you can do can in any way influence God nor contribute your salvation. It is ALL of grace! Even faith is a gift of God and created within the soul by the Holy Spirit. (cf. Jonah 2:9; Acts 13:48; Eph 2:8, 9) Thirdly, what you believe is most important, i.e., the truth of the Gospel for "it is the power unto salvation". (Rom 1:16) However, faith does not save... Christ alone saves. Faith is simply the means by which a sinner trusts in Christ and submits to His Lordship.

What it means is that unless God creates the desire within you, there will not be, there cannot be any genuine godly desire to be saved. Simply put, unless the Holy Spirit regenerates your dead soul, you won't give a thought to "being saved", i.e., turning from your sins, living a holy life, trusting in Christ for forgiveness of sins and having His righteousness imputed to your account, being reconciled to God and glorifying His name in every thought, word and deed.

To sum up there are two biblical truths which must be apprehended; held together without distorting, diminishing nor denying either: 1) God is totally sovereign in ALL THINGS, both in power and authority. 2) Man is fully responsible for his every thought, word and deed. He is commanded to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ unto salvation. It doesn't matter whether God has predestined him... he is fully responsible to do so for God has so commanded it.

The truth is, if man is as totally depraved as the Bible teaches he is, then without an eternal unconditional election, no man could be saved.

In His grace,

Many times our problem is that we put the horse before the cart. We are more concerned with exercising faith than we are sorrowful over our sin. God's word says in:

Ps. 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Instead of worrying about whether God will save us or not, we need to see if we are truly repentant of our evil ways. Not just remorseful but repentant.

I agree with everything that was said concerning election, but on the same vein, God will save those who have a contrite heart. He turned from His wrath He intended on Ninevah, He allowed the Israelites to change the month of the passover when they returned to the temple and He is seen in many instances turning from what He intended because of the contrition of the people. Are we sorrowful over our sin and of a contrite heart? or do we just want to be saved in order to keep us out of the lake of fire like an insurance policy? Contrition should be first, if that is what is moving you to question God's election, then you have truly entered through the wicket gate.

I recently started to listen to Christian radio stations (all by accident) and I liked it. I have never thought of being saved by Jesus before. In my mind, I have decided I am a good man, I don't lie or steal or bother anybody, why would a rational God deny me salvation. But as I continue to listen to various preachers I started to study the Bible and dicovered that I am a sinner (what a shock, an upright man being a sinner!). I confessed my sin to the Lord and accepted Christ as my Savior. I truly wanted to serve the Lord in any way I could. However, one sermon I heard on predestination got me confused. According to the preacher, the work is done and God has already elected those he want to save. While I realize God has the right to do so, this idea of predestination all of a sudden made me to be unsure of my salvation. Am I elected? I don't know because what I believe and do all of a sudden does not matter anymore. I want to be saved, but if God has not elected me, then what am I going to do? In any case, I will continue to repent and keep up the faith as it already gave me peace in my present life.

After reading all your responses, I still do not understand it? Does it mean that only the elected are interested (drawn/attracted) in becoming repentant and trust God and Christ?

Hi again cjones,
The argument shouldn't be about whether I'm saved or not. If you are truly repentant knowing that you are a sinner and desire to turn from your wickedness to God, believing Christ died for you to take the penalty of your sins so that you would be acceptable to God, then do so, as it sounds you have done. Keep yourself in the word and in fellowship with other believers and grow in grace. By doing these things, you will grow in your knowledge of God and in time the doctrine of election may become more clear to you. Even if it doesn't, don't be overly concerned about it, the Word doesn't say, believe in election and be saved but believe in Jesus Christ. Also, keep in mind, dead things don't have life, but it sounds as though you have life by your desire to learn and hear the word, praise God for that and press on. Do not become weary and do not seek to argue against the word of God but continue to learn doctrine, experience it in your life and put it into practice daily and you will continue to grow in knowledge and wisdom. There are many born again Christians who do not accept the doctrine of election, but I still consider them brothers in Christ. Get involved in a good Bible teaching church. There are many churches but few really good ones. Sadly, many false prophets have gone out and are teaching false doctrines and seeking to gain a reputation or riches for themselves instead of seeking to glorify God and lift up the name of Christ. You'll know them, the messages will be all about morality and very little about Christ and the cross. God Bless you, and I pray God will give you knowledge and wisdom in all these things.

I apologize, I meant to say whether you are elected or not. Anyway, the point is, that understanding election isn't crucial for your salvation. I believe that as Pilgrim pointed out, we wouldn't even desire to understand if the Spirit of God weren't working in our hearts, so if we have the desire it is most likely God's Spirit working in us. Scripture says to work out our salvation with fear and trembling Phil. 2:12 and to make our calling and election sure 2 Peter 1:10. We do this by staying in the word, and being in fellowship as the body of Christ, we need both, we can't go it alone. We are dependent on each other to grow as testified many places in scripture 1 Cor. 12, and Eph. 4 for example. The word is the only sure guide we have, so to leave off that is to keep the lights off and stubble in darkness. Many leave off one or the other and because of that they struggle in their Christian faith.

When I married my wife, she didn't understand election, but she was sure of her salvation and was a born again believer. We discussed it and she kept coming up with reasons not to accept it, but then one day God opened her eyes to see the truth. It is all in God's timing. Ask Him to give you understanding. Don't try to reason it out in your own strength, it is a difficult doctrine, but one that is full of blessing. Remember, all these things are Spiritually discerned, if you can't understand it now, do not get hung up on it, in time you will understand, if not here, when we see Him as He is. I don't believe anyone can convince someone of its truth by way of argument, God must reveal it to you. It is good to seek to understand, ask Him to give you understanding and try not to argue against the plain truth of scripture. God is Sovereign.

I used to drive myself nuts about this issue - whether I'm elect or not?



First of all, I think that question can actually be to our benefit because as we begin to fall prey to sin (which we will) we will question the sincerity of our confession and whether we have true saving faith. Those whose security is works-based (human-ability oriented) will be forced to reevaluate their standing before God.


I think the X-factor is guilt and sorrow over sin - this cannot be contrived. This is a sure sign or mark of a true child of God. Those with a true sorrow and a true desire for reconciliation and obedience to God are traveling on the NARROW ROAD that leads to Heaven


Personally, there came a point in my life, while in the midst of the vicious cycle of sin and unbelief, that I was led to truly believe that God is faithful and will finish the work He has wrought in me - since then I have put my whole faith and trust that my struggles and guilt over sin will not be in vein. I trust Jesus, who is faithful to the broken-hearted that are overcome with sin and look toward Him for deliverance. I will never be perfect and I will stumble often but I cannot turn away from the one to whom I have hope!

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/yep.gif" alt="" /> and <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/nope.gif" alt="" />, hehe.

1. Yes, only the elect will in time become TRULY and GENUINELY convicted of sin and consequently repent and believe upon Christ. This is the work of the Holy Spirit.

2. No, many will outwardly show interest in Christ and speak "god words", play church, etc. Sometimes it is very difficult to distinguish between the "wheat" and the "tares". In these last days it is God's will that both will dwell together in the visible Church. Jesus explained all of this in several different ways, one of which is most well known here, Matthew 13:3-23, Mark 4:3-20, and Luke 8:5-18, (cf. Matt 7:21-27; 11:25-30).

As for the doctrine of Predestination/Election, although it is taught in myriad places in Scripture, for me the clearest and most glorious passage is found in Ephesians 1:4-13. There, Paul is expounding upon how the believers in Ephesus came to be believers... and why; for what purpose.

It can be healthy to have doubts about your salvation as it is a means by which God brings you closer to Himself by grace. Looking inward will only result in depression and doubt for what good could one possibly find in a heart which is laden with sin, albeit in part compared to before the soul was made alive? (read Romans 7:7-25 which is portion of Paul's own autobiography)

And lastly, there are many beneficial articles on Predestination which William already pointed you to here: Predestination, which I would encourage you to read through. Many, if not most of your questions on this doctrine are answered there. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,

Thank you all for your excellent responses. I learned a lot. I will continue to pray to God and Christ to give me the wisdom to understand his purpose.

God Bless