The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum The begotten God Heresy

The begotten God heresy

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Modern day christiandum has adopted for the most part a creed called the nicene creed..In this creed it is taught that Jesus christ, the Son of God, according to His Deity, was begotten of the Father before all worlds..notice:


The Nicene Creed
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

This detestable doctrine is saying that God was begotten of God..That the very God was begotten of the very God..

This is rooted in greek mythologhy of the times of the 325 council.

Interesting quote:

Exploring the ancient Greek mythological concept of the Begotten Gods that Justin Martyr introduced into Christianity, and Origen popularized and later Constantine’s new church embraced and set forth in its official imperial creed known as the Nicene Creed or Nicenism.

see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/old-sc.../message/12602

Yes, thats right, the concept of the Son being begotten of The father, in His Deity, very God begotten of very God, finds its roots in greek mythology..Its of the devil..and many believe it and support it..

Its a doctrine of men; col 2:

8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

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"Begotten" refers to the incarnation, Anthony. "Before all worlds" refers to the plan and purpose of God, just as is expressed in the Scriptures which tell us that Christ was slain "before the foundation of the world."

The Nicene creed teaches no such heresy as you have assigned to it.

And by the way, that link doesn't work.

1. The Nicene Creed teaches no such thing, i.e., "God was begotten of God". The creed is more than clear that the Son is of the same essence homoousios with the Father: "God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;". We know that the Son is equal to the Father and pre-existent, i.e., He was not made (created) from such texts as, Mic 5:2; Jh 1:14, 18; 3:16; 517, 18, 30, 36; Acts 13:33; Jh 17:4; Col 1:16; Heb 1:3. So, what did the Father 'generate' in regard to the eternal Son, the second person of the Trinity? First, what it wasn't was the Son's divine essence, for then the creed would be rightly charged with teaching that "God begot God". Rather, generation is referring to the "personal subsistence" of the Son. Again, I think Berkhof succinctly summarizes both the right understanding of the Nicene Creed, which is that held by true Christians and was what Christendom in total embraced, and the biblical teaching concerning the generation (only begotten) of the Son:
   
   
   Originally Posted by Berkhof Systematic Theology, p. 94

   It is that eternal and necessary act of the first person in the Trinity, whereby he, within the divine Being, is the ground of a second personal subsistence like His own, and puts this second person in possession of the whole divine essence, without any division, alienation, or change.
2. Since you have publicly stated that you reject the eternal generation of the Son and this fundamental doctrine of the Christian religion, what is your view in regard to:
   
   a. The doctrine of the Trinity? Is there but one God Who exists in three persons? Or ??
   b. Who is the Son, the Logos of God in His person and essence?
   c. Who is the Holy Spirit?

In His grace,

Not in the Nicene creed..read it again, it says The Son was begotten before all worlds..

I believe in the Trinity, where did I say I dont believe in the Trinity ? God is a Trinity a GodHead..

You believe in the begotten Divine Essence, you do realize that concept comes from greek mythology dont you ? The Eternal Word, was not begotten, but existed eternally as the Father and the Holy Ghost..Deity doesnt beget Deity..But what was begotten before all worlds ? The Sacred Mediatoral Manhood of Jesus christ, as the head of the church..Jesus christ manhood was begotten of God, not His Deity..

Please define the phrase "Trinity" according to your understanding, since you reject the Nicene Creed.

THANKS!

I have already clearly submitted that the Son's essence was NOT generated/begotten of the Father since the Father and Son and Spirit are all of the SAME essence (homoousios). Please go back and reread what was written in this regard.

So are you now denying the incarnation of the Lord Jesus Christ? Jesus Christ didn't exist until the Holy Spirit conceived Him in Mary's womb. He was BORN of the virgin Mary in temporal space and time. The God-man Jesus of Nazareth is not eternal... the SON is eternal Who joined Himself with human flesh and BECAME Jesus of Nazareth. This is what John in his gospel is wanting to declare and prove:

John 1:1-3 (ASV) "In the beginning was the Word [Son], and the Word [Son] was with God, and the Word [Son] was God. The same [Son] was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him [Son]; and without him [Son] was not anything made that hath been made... (14) And the Word [Son] became flesh [Jesus of Nazareth], and dwelt among us (and we beheld his [the God-man] glory, glory as of the only begotten [Son] from the Father), full of grace and truth... (18) No man hath seen God [Father] at any time; the only begotten Son [Word], who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

Could the Holy Spirit have put it any clearer?

We see this same truth in prophesy where Isaiah wrote:

Isaiah 9:6 (ASV) "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

The "child is born" refers to Jesus the Christ, son of Joseph and Mary who is God incarnate. He was born in time and space history. The "son is given" is referring to the eternal Son of God Who is of the very essence of the Father, who was begotten and not born.

So to summarize for your benefit:

1. The Word, Son of God is eternally generated, the only-begotten of the Father who is of the same essence, i.e., He is very God of very God, the eternal second person of the Trinity.

2. Jesus [the Christ] of Nazareth is the God-man who came into being in His manhood through the Holy Spirit and conception of Mary, wife of Joseph.

The Nicene Creed is hardly the by-product of Greek Mythology since it has nothing in common with it. In fact it contradicts the tenets of that pagan religion. Let's get our history straight, shall we?

In His grace,

Not bad for a free hander.

Anthony,

The concept of the "begottenness" of the Son is straight from Scripture: "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth" (John 1:14); "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him" (John 1:18). Here, as in the Nicene Creed, the fundamental matter is this: is the Son of God a created being, or uncreated? To say that the Son of God is "begotten" of the Father is to affirm that He is uncreated, possessing with the Father the same divine essence, and that from all eternity. If one interprets this with referrence to the humanity of the Son, then one attributes to the eternal God an eternal human nature, which is blasphemous. There is no heresy, or Greek mythology, underlying the Nicene Creed, but rather pure scripture truth: the Son of God, who took on a created human nature, is nonetheless the uncreated & eternal Word of the Triune God.

Actually, Robin, "begotten" refers to the divine nature of the Son, and "before all worlds" to His eternity.

I agree, but not his Deity..do you understand that if you cleave to that ideal, you are saying God is begotten..Thats pagan as it comes..No Part of the Divine Nature was begotten..

Yes, No problem, I believe in line with the philadelphia of 1646 which reads as this:

In this divine and infinite Being, there is the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, each having
the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided; all infinite, without any beginning, therefore
but one God, Who is not to be divided in nature and being, but distinguished by several peculiar
relative properties.

This is my belief..Now if you want to doubt my belief in the Trinity, fine..thats on you..

1. I am not familiar with a document named, "Philadelphia of 1646". I am familiar with the "Philadelphia Confession" of 1742 which is nearly identical to the "Baptist London Confession" of 1689. The only confession that I am aware of from 1646 is the "Westminster Confession". So, what is this "Philadelphia of 1646" that you allegedly quoted from?

2. Just for fun, let's assume that you got the date wrong and you meant to type 1742 for the "Philadelphia Confession". Now, here's what that document states in regard to the Trinity, which you will plainly see is at variance with what you have stated you believe re: "only begotten" but in total agreement with the Nicene Creed:

Now, since you claim to hold the definition of God as quoted from this "Philadelphia of 1646", which you also claim to be your definition of Trinity, then yes, I have to say that I doubt your belief in the Trinity is biblical for it is surely not. The quote you provided is not only incomplete but in error.

In His grace,

1) No, I am saying the Son is begotten of the Father, not "God is begotten," period, end of story. Begottenness describes only the relationship between the Father & the Son. And this relationship is eternal: the Son didn't come into existence at some point in time, but has always existed in the bosom of the Father as the Father's only-begotten Son.

2) Can you please point me to whatever pagan myths you have in mind?