The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum John 3:3 Question

Last week I had the chance to sit down with a Reformed pastor and talk about the doctrines of grace. I can tell you that these kinds of conversations are few and far between other than on the internet.

Anyway that is not the reason I am starting this thread, the reason is because during that discussion he said something that I am wondering about.
He told me that unlike many of the Reformed faith, he does not believe that regeneration comes before faith. I wish I could remember the reasons why he said this, but it had something to do with John 3:3 and the Greek.
He told me not to misunderstand him, he believes like all Reformed believers that something must occur before anyone believes, but it is not regeneration.

Would I be correct, to say that he believes in what is commonly referred to as the "elongated view"?
Is his view common among Reformed believers?


Tom

Then you need to get back with this man and ask him a few important questions, e.g.,
1. What in the Greek does he believe justifies his view contrary to the vast majority of expositors?

2. He is NOT "like all Reformed believers that something must occur before anyone believes. That is far too broad a statement which I am sure is meant to allow him to hold his view. Reformed believers (consult any Reformed Confession or Catechism) are indisputably clear that regeneration must occur before faith because faith is the RESULT of regeneration. Thus, you also need to ask him if he holds to the Reformed doctrine of "Total Depravity" as it is stated in the historic Reformed confessions/catechisms.

3. Historic Arminianism (not modern evangelical semi-Pelagianism) would agree with him, i.e., regeneration follows faith and that something must occur before faith can be exercised, i.e.,. "Prevenient Grace", whereby the Holy Spirit "enables" a sinner to believe and consequent to that, regeneration follows. This prevenient grace is not efficacious, so they held, for the sinner can resist the Holy Spirit and remain in unbelief if he so chose.

The "elongated view" holds that someone can be regenerated by the Holy Spirit and then after an "elongated" period of time be converted. This is typically applied to "covenant children".

This is indisputably NOT held by those who are Reformed. It IS held by a rare few who call themselves Reformed, but they are totally at variance with ALL the Reformed confessions and catechisms. Total Depravity necessitates Irresistible Grace (regeneration) else one cannot even have an interest in Christ. A new nature/heart needs to be created out of which flows faith.

So, get back with this man and ask some pointed questions.

Pilgrim

Unfortunately I don't know how it will be possible to question this pastor further, because he lives in Germany.
As I previously said, he believes in all 5 of the doctrines of grace. It was very clear that this was the case in our conversation.
I will say this, it is certainly possible that I was misunderstanding him, but thought I did understand him.
The conversation was about 20 minutes long and unfortunately I didn't have time to question him further.
That is the main reason why I thought I would get others take, in the hope that it would shed some light on the matter.

As it stands, seeing that I am absolutely sure that he believes in all 5 points, I am probably misunderstanding something. Hopefully, I will be able to find someone who has his e-mail address.

Thanks Pilgrim for your input

Tom

Tom,

Okay.... why not think this through? ASSUMING that you have not misunderstood him, how does a spiritually dead sinner believe so as to be regenerated from which faith is born? Again, true Arminianism, e.g., of the Wesley variety, asserts that the Spirit does an initial work in the sinner which frees him from that inability to believe, aka: prevenient grace, enabling the sinner to make a free-will choice. Most assuredly, this is NOT consistent with Calvinism. The Synod of Dordt in its Third Head of Doctrine, in particular Articles 11 & 12, decisively repudiated any such notion and deemed it heresy.

Can you think of any way around this dilemma where a totally depraved sinner is able to exercise faith without first being given a new heart/nature?

Pilgrim

Good question and one that if I get to ask him will.
That is one of the things that made me confused.

You’re preaching to the choir.
Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Tom

Tom,

I agree wholeheartedly with Pilgrim. I just finished reading the book "The gospel as taught by Calvin" by RC Reed, which is on just these matters you are raising. It is worth getting this little book and read it more than once - I promised myself that I just have to read it again and again. These issues really touch the heart of our faith. One should actually also read the Canons of Dordt with Reed's book. Get the book - you will not regret it.

The pastor you're talking about may not be the only one in reformed circles who has this view. I will not be surprised if there are more reformed church folk who thinks different from the historical reformed view.

Btw, Reed says that Paul and Peter were Calvinists.

Johan

Pilgrim
I will say that this particular pastor didn't seem to believe in "prevenient grace". I say that because from what I gather both from him and a friend of mine, who when he lived in Germany discovered the doctrines of grace under his teaching; believe that this grace is irresistible. It isn't a grace that can be rejected once it is given.

If I am able to get in touch with this pastor, I will definitely query him concerning his issue.
Let me know if you would like me to post my findings if and when I find out.
I guess it shouldn’t surprise me to hear strange teaching, even coming from those who claim to be Reformed.

Tom

Johan

Please forgive me if I am misunderstanding you; but I am in full agreement with Pilgrim on these matters.
I was just a little confused concerning what this particular pastor said to me.
I would also state that what he said sounds more like Wesleyan prevenient grace, than the grace that Calvinism teaches.
However, as I said in my last post, he seemed to make it pretty clear that he believes in all five points of Calvinism.

Which leads me to believe that I have misunderstood him (which I hope is the case) or he hasn't thought through the matter enough to know that what he believes is not consistent with Calvinism.
Thank you for the book recommendation, but at this time I think I am going to have to pass. Not because it would not do me good, but because I have read other similar books and I have a few books on the go already.

Tom

Tom,

I think you did misunderstood me. Nevermind!

Johan

Pilgrim
I am in the process of writing an e-mail to this pastor.
About your question
I have a feeling that if I have not misunderstood him, he would probably answer that although something must occur before faith, unlike "prevenient grace" that something is effectual. But that something is not regeneration.

Boy I hope I have misunderstood him.

Tom

UNLESS he embraces the semi-Pelagian view that all men at birth have a 'natural ability' to believe I know of no other possible answer other than regeneration or 'prevenient grace' (aka: Arminianism). It will be interesting to find out how he responds. Hopefully, as you say, you have misunderstood something.

This question is addressed to either Pilgrim, or someone else that is familiar with the Greek as used in either John 3:3 or Eph. 2:5.

As I previously stated this pastor referred to the Greek when telling me about what he believed about regeneration.

I just recently sent him an e-mail asking him to clarify himself; but seeing as how he stressed the Greek for his reasoning for not believing that regeneration comes before faith. I thought that perhaps because I anticipate him bringing up the Greek, that it might be beneficial on my part knowing something applicable about the Greek in these passages.
Perhaps this might even be beneficial should it prove that I misunderstood him and he indeed holds to a Reformed view of regeneration.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you
Tom

Tom,

The Greek text offers NOTHING to support any notion whatsoever that regeneration follows faith. In fact, the text is indisputably clear in stating that regeneration is first and is most necessary if anyone is to be a participant in the "kingdom of God", which is synonymous with salvation in its fullness.

Now as to the Greek text itself, the phrase "gennatha anothen" which is variously translated... gennatha = "born" and is in the third person singular aorist subjective passive. The passive voice is probably the most salient part for it shows that this birth is accomplished without any participation of the individual other than the person being the subject of it. To give a simple illustration between the active mood and the passive mood:

- Active: John hit the ball.
- Passive: John was hit by the ball.

As you can easily see, with the active mood, John is directly involved in the hitting of the ball. But in the passive mood, John has no direct involvement other than being the unfortunate target of the ball which was put into motion by someone else.

The second word in the phrase is anothen and the one word which is variously and most popularly translated as, "again", "anew", "from above". I believe the context as well as John's use of this word elsewhere as well as in other parts of the NT, cf. Jh 3:31; 19:11; 19:23; Matt 27:51, Mk 15:38; Jam 1:17; 3:15,17, that "from above" is to be heavily preferred. In short, this birth is a heavenly phenomena, which later (3:6ff) is made plain that it is a birth brought about by the sovereign, secret and silent working of the Spirit of God.

The bottom line is that man (Grk: tis [anyone, any man, etc.]) has absolutely no part in nor contribution to regeneration, e.g., the exercising of faith. This, of course, accords with the Reformed doctrines of Total Depravity, where man is spiritually dead and Irresistible Grace which includes the spiritual birth, aka: regeneration, OUT OF WHICH faith comes and which embraces Christ.

Now, let's see what response comes you way from Germany.