The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Cultural influences on worship

In a discussion we were having recently, a question arose regarding how culture influences the ministry of the church. The following is a quote from John Calvin's Preface to the Psalter.

POWER OF MUSIC

But still there is more: there is scarcely in the world anything which is more able to turn or bend this way and that the morals of men, as Plato prudently considered it. And in fact, we find by experience that it has a sacred and almost incredible power to move hearts in one way or another. Therefore we ought to be even more diligent in regulating it in such a way that it shall be useful to us and in no way pernicious. For this reason the ancient doctors of the Church complain frequently of this, that the people of their times were addicted to dishonest and shameless songs, which not without cause they referred to and called mortal and Satanic poison for corrupting the world. Moreover, in speaking now of music, I understand two parts: namely the letter, or subject and matter; secondly, the song, or the melody. It is true that every bad word (as St. Paul has said) perverts good manner, but when the melody is with it, it pierces the heart much more strongly, and enters into it; in a like manner as through a funnel, the wine is poured into the vessel; so also the venom and the corruption is distilled to the depths of the heart by the melody.

How does your church regard the influence of culture on the Church?

When we think of the music that is being used in churches today, does it reflect the attributes of God? Is it beautiful? balanced with melody and harmony? rhythmical? Or does it sound more like what the world calls music and only graced with "god words" scattered throughout to redeem it for purposes of worship? I hear about entertainers like Shai Linne who are promoted by preachers like Mark Dever. What he does is not honoring to God. He is merely a rapper who has gained a following by twisting the confessions to fit his purpose, musically and ends up with some pretty distorted teachings. And I hear parents saying that they use this stuff in their homeschooling since it would have musical appeal to their children. Why is it that professing Christians do this? Why not pursue musical excellence that does not extol the shallow and perverse culture that we live in? In Acts 19:18,19 "Many also of them that had believed came, confessing, and declaring their deeds. 19 And not a few of them that practised magical arts brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all; and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver." We see that the Ephesians burned the wicked and idolatrous books that were much a part of the past lives they repented of. It seems that the church encourages people to continue in the wicked ways of their past instead of repenting from them.

Again from the preface to the Psalter, Calvin says some wonderful things about the purpose of music and how it ought to be used.

Now among the other things which are proper for recreating man and giving him pleasure, music is either the first, or one of the principal; and it is necessary for us to think that it is a gift of God deputed for that use. Moreover, because of this, we ought to be the more careful not to abuse it, for fear of soiling and contaminating it, converting it our condemnation, where it was dedicated to our profit and use. If there were no other consideration than this alone, it ought indeed to move us to moderate the use of music, to make it serve all honest things; and that it should no give occasion for our giving free rein to dissolution, or making ourselves effeminate in disordered delights, and that it should not become the instrument of lasciviousness nor of any shamelessness.

Chestnutmare

I agree with what is written, however there is a section that I think it might be helpful if an example was given.
I am definitely not a fan of rap at all and I don't want to be seen as someone who is defending a rapper such as Shai Linne. However, the way this is written it makes an accusation against Shai Linne, without showing how he twists confessions to fit his purpose, and musically ends up with some pretty distorted teachings.
Sorry, I have no interest in listening to lyrics of a rap song to try to understand what he is saying. The very idea repulses me.
I am aware that music is not neutral, but the way this is written it sounds like both the words and the music are un-biblical.
Had it said that the music pollutes his words, then I wouldn’t even be posting this.
The only thing I have heard about Shai Linne is that he is a rapper who just happens to believe in the doctrines of grace and sings about them.

Tom

It is a commentary on Shai Linne as well as many others. Here is what a quick search for Shai Linne produced.
Listen for yourself, it is only 4 =/- minutes long. He calls God "his hottest poppa"! Now if that isn't blasphemy!

I am not directing this at you Tom, but music can be an idol which is highly protected by the one who embraces it. It is a very powerful medium as Calvin points out. Try taking someone's "tunes" from them. Tell them they can't listen to their rock music and they will quickly remove you from their friendlist before removing their rock music from their listening list. People actually become violent over cancelled rock concerts. How many people become violent over classical music concerts getting cancelled?

You can tell a lot about a person's god by the music they listen to. What attributes of their music reflect the God of the Bible? As a man thinketh so is he.

Mt 12:34 Ye offspring of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Luke 6:45 The good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth that which is evil: for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

Mt 15:18-20  But the things which proceed out of the mouth come forth out of the heart; and they defile the man. 19 For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, railings: 20 these are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not the man.

Calling God "his hottest Pappa" is clearly wrong and I do not want to make light of that fact. However, I think is is certainly possible (I don't know him) that he thinks that he is honouring God with that term.
I do know that I have said a lot of things in my Christian life out of ignorance, then later I needed to repent of, when God gave me more knowledge on the issue.
Of course that didn't excuse me, it was still wrong but I did it out of ignorance.
One of the things about this issue and others like it that is sad, is the fact that in a lot of cases when someone becomes a Christian, they are actually encouraged to use their gifts in ways that may or may not be Biblical.
In my case, I had to learn the hard way that what I thought was God honouring was in fact was not Biblical. This of course was God's own doing as He began to grow me.
I think it is great to reveal sin in people's lives and let God convict of that sin. Yet, I try to be careful not to go further than that.
For example, if I am with a Christian teenager who I know has is growing in Christ. Yet, I I find out they listen to rap music, should I conclude that they are still dead in trespasses and sins? I don't think so, if I did it would be speculation on my part.
I think the better approach is to give them Scripture and or articles that point them towards the truth. Even if they didn't immediately repent, I wouldn't conclude that they are unregenerate either. Why? Mainly because looking back, on many issues it took me years to come not only understand an issue, but to repent of a sin.
I also have come to believe that even this time next year (if God hasn't taken me home) I will have repented of other sins that at this time I think are Biblical.

Tom,

1. The subject was NOT whether this Shai Linne was regenerate or not. But rather, whether his hip-hop/rap 'music' and his lyrics were contrary to Scripture.

2. In the video that was provided, there were many clear instances that showed without any doubt, that this man is guilty of teaching falsehood and spewing forth blasphemies against the one true God. Another example, if you listened carefully, was his referring to the cross as "holy ground". Surely, you understand that wherever the phrase "holy ground" is found, particularly in the OT, it is in reference to the very presence of God. To refer to the cross as "holy ground" is to make mockery of the atonement and in particular the resurrection. The cross was simply the instrument. It was and is Christ who is HOLY. I would highly recommend you pay close attention to his lyrics, and you will find several instances of serious error/heresy in them.

3. The further issue is that this worldly individual is being promoted by pastors, one of which is one of your "favorites", and heralded as a man used of God to proclaim the Gospel. They have violated God's "holy ground", the Church within which He is ever present and thus His name is blasphemed and profaned by such 'entertainers".

4. Lastly, you can make all the excuses you like for Shai Linne's reference to the thrice Holy God as "his hottest pappa", but you cannot escape the reality of the fact that such a reference reveals his innermost conception of who his "god" is. It is unquestionably not the biblical God. Draw whatever conclusion you like, but I find it most difficult to conceive that any person indwelt by the Holy Spirit would be able to utter such blasphemous words, never mind combining such speech with that worldly, godless music.

Pilgrim
The topic might be whether or not Shae Linne`s music and lyrics were Biblical or not. However, by connotation one could think by the wording that it is also about whether or not Shae Linne is regenerate.
Though I intend to listen to that video I haven't as yet done so, so I will take your word for it.



Though I understand where you are coming from and agree to an extent. I do know that in certain cultures such phrases are common. In many African American cultures and Jamaican cultures, they use expressions like that in everyday language. When they become Christians they don't automatically stop this kind of talk.
The point I am try to make is that although I certainly think such talk is blasphemous, when some of them use a phrase like that it is not meant as a slight against God. Rather it is meant as an expression connotating what in their mind is a compliment to the most high God.
To our ears, it is demeaning to God, but not necessarily to them. I am not saying that this is the case with Shae Linne, because I don't know him, but it could very well be.
I would however, if given the chance hopefully confront him with Scripture, that shows him that despite his motives, he is in error on the issue.
Culture does not excuse someone, but never the less just because they become Christian does not automatically mean they give up such thinking before they understand it is a sin.
I believe that if someone who claims to be a Christian uses a term like "his hottest papa" knowing it is blasphemous, then it is very troubling. Yet at the same time, I don't want to assume that is the case.
Admittedly, Mark Dever's endorsement of him is more concerning to me. Regardless of whether or not Mark Dever knows the words in this song; it never the less is irresponsible of him to endorse Shae Linne.
Mark Dever has written some material over the years that have been very helpful to my Christian growth, yet with his involvement with the New Calvinism movement it is very troubling to say the least. No less than JI Packer and his involvement with ECT.
I personally have listened to a few sermons by men Mark Dever and Dr. Albert Mohler which are in direct opposition to some of what New Calvinism teaches; yet when I try to find out why; my inquiries are ignored. My pastor who was a fan of these men also, is also very concerned about this as well.
Concerning rap music itself, although I have come to believe such music is worldly and therefore should not be used by any confessing Christian. Never the less, that view actually came over years of study.
Many very committed Christians believe that music is Romans 14 jurisdiction. But also feel that while one may listen to their own musical style (not worldly music) outside of a formal worship service. Only certain music should be used in corporate music.
Some of these believers put me to shame when it comes to their reverence both to Scripture and to the Thrice Holy God.
Tom

Shai Linne was an intern under Mark Dever and was producing these rap pieces during that time. I would find it rather unlikely that Mark Dever did not know what Shai Linne was doing. He really is without excuse.

Tom,

Here's the bottom line... Shai Linne may be regenerate, which God only knows absolutely. However, these two truths are nonetheless inescapable and mandated by Scripture:

1. IF, as you would like to suggest, that Shai Linne's blasphemous references to God and errors in theology are due to simple ignorance, then IF that is the case, then he has no warrant to be teaching or evangelizing. No church should encourage him to allow nor encourage him in these things but rather counsel him to first grow in the faith and be trained in the Gospel and biblical truth.

2. The fact that his blasphemy is publicly known and promoted, whatever church has authority over him should confront him with this odious sin and instruct him that such sin should be repented of. If he refuses to repent, then he should be disciplined and if necessary excommunicate him from the Church. Excommunication is the declaring that the individual in question either believes or lives contrary to his/her confession of faith and more importantly what God demands of profession believers as He has revealed His will in Scripture. And thus, the individual is cast out of the Church as an unbeliever in the hopes that such a pronouncement will be instrumental in having the weight of the seriousness of the situation bear upon their minds and hearts so that they will repent and return to the Church.

I cannot stress the severity of what is going on in the contemporary Church and Shai Linne (and doubtless others) are not only received but held up as ambassadors of Christ by Elders and Teachers. If nothing else, this certainly demonstrates how far the visible Church has fallen from grace and rebelled against the kingship of Christ and His infallible Word. The world is taking dominion over much of the church and not by force but rather shamefully, by invitation.

Something else that troubles me about this issue with Shai Linne and his internship. Isn't it the pastor's and elder's responsibility for the content and manner of worship in their church? It is my understanding that Shai Linne is performing this rap during worship and not only for videos and concerts. So, the elders of the church are culpable in this. As a supervisor over Shai Linne, Mark Dever should have given careful thought of what Shai Linne was doing and given him proper instruction. If refused, further discipline should have been forthcoming. As a pastor who is responsible for the worship of his church, he has failed to do what is right.

Perhaps I did not state it well, but what you just said is basically what I was trying to say.

Tom

Reluctantly I agree with you. I am quite disappointed.

Reluctantly Tom? It is grievous! Very sad. We live in times of darkness when what is right is made out to be wrong and disparaged and what is wrong is written into law. These are times to be discerning and ever cautious. I too am disappointed. I am disappointed whenever someone I have respected falls.

It was painful but I listened to the entire thing.Excuse the word "thing " but I'm at a loss as to what it should be called.If you want to feel the pulse of the modern church just read the comments concerning this "song".Also,it is interesting to see the number of people who gave this a thumbs up,969,and the number who gave it a thumbs down,10. Does this reflect a correct percentage of church goers who have correct doctrine?

Scary! But, even sadder...