The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Cultural influences on worship

You might not like my choice of the word "reluctantly". However I am at a loss to know of a better way to put it.
On an issue like this, when someone I respect does something that I strongly disagree with; I usually look into the matter further, mainly because I want to make certain I am not the one in error.
In this case, I am very disappointed to say that Mark Dever is in serious error, based on biblical evidence and I must bow to God’s word.
That is the reason I say reluctantly, because it saddens me.
There might be a better word to describe it, but I am not sure what that word is.

Tom

Tom, I think I do understand how you might feel about such a revelation. You certainly are not alone for I have been met with great disappointment at learning that someone I had once revered as a GIANT in the faith, has been given over to some gross error and even apostasy. I have named that feeling, GRIEF. It is humbling and has shown me that it is all of Christ.

On the subject of Holy Ground, I thought I would look to see what others on the internet believe concerning 'Holy Ground'.
Would you agree with the following?


Something stands out here as being a little off.

It is my understanding that we as Christians gathered for worship are the sanctuary, not the gathering place for worship.
Though I agree we should enter worship with solemn awe and seriousness, should we go as far as this man says?

Tom

1. This person's application of the passage, whether from OT or the NT reference, which are the same, is a giant leap of something; certainly not logic. It is true that one should serve and worship God with reverence and awe [Grk: properly, godly fear] (Heb 12:28). And, it is true that one should have this attitude and heart when entering a place of worship. But it can't be found in that text.

2. Although the individual believer is sometimes referred to as being the "temple of God or Holy Spirit" (1Cor 3:16; 6:19; 2Cor 6:16), a "holy temple" (Eph 2:21,22), and a "spiritual house" (1Pet 2:5), it is also true that wherever believers gather together for formal worship it can be called a "sanctuary", i.e., the place where the presence of God can be found in a particular way, e.g., divine worship. This is a truth greatly and horribly ignored or denied by the contemporary 'church'.

Pilgrim

Great answer, I especially appreciated how you provided Scripture support. It made it easy to not only read what you said, but to look to Scripture at the same time.

However, I am not sure if it was an oversight on your part, but when you said:
You didn't provide any Scripture, to support your view.

Tom

Well, if you insist...

Remember, one may also come to the truth not only by direct textual support but also, as the WCF states: "The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture". And the LBCF has a similar affirmation: "The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down or necessarily contained in the Holy Scripture:" Thus, we can find that there are numerous places in Scripture where a structure or designated place was either called a "sanctuary" or functioned in the capacity of a "sanctuary" and was so recognized and respected as such.


Ex. 25:8,9; 33:7; 1Sam 1:9, 3:2-4; Num 1:49-54; 2Chron 5:5; Isa 63:18; Ps 20:2, 63:2, 68:24, 73:17; Matt 18:20 (in the context of the organized church); Acts 7:44ff; 1Tim 3:15.

Okay, that should suffice to establish the fact that a "sanctuary" is also a place wherein God's presence is found and where the people of God come to worship Him. In both testaments, the people of God entered into or before the "sanctuary" which testified and demonstrated their separation from the world for the place of the one true God was "holy".

Pilgrim

Thank you.

By the way it is partly your fault that I am getting picky in my old age.

Tom

There's therefore hope for you yet, Tom!

I hope I am not expecting too much, by asking this.
Unless I am missing something, I think you have established beyond a reasonable doubt concerning this issue that Scripture teaches it.

That being the case, I would expect that although this view might be rejected in a lot of today’s Churches. Would I be correct to say that this is the classic (if I may use that word) Reformed view on the issue?
If so, can you give me a few examples of this teaching?

Tom

I'm beginning to feel like the "Shell Answer Man"

Calvin's Institutes Book 4, Chapter 1,
Section 17. Fourth objection and answer. Answer confirmed by the divine promises.

Since they also argue that there is good reason for the Church being called holy, it is necessary to consider what the holiness is in which it excels, lest by refusing to acknowledge any church, save one that is completely perfect, we leave no church at all. It is true, indeed, as Paul says, that Christ "loved the church, and gave himself for it, that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish," (Eph 5: 25-27).

Section 19. Appearance of the Church in the days of Christ and the apostles, and their immediate followers.

Then what kind of age was that of Christ and the apostles? Yet neither could the desperate impiety of the Pharisees, nor the dissolute licentiousness of manners which everywhere prevailed, prevent them from using the same sacred rites with the people, and meeting in one common temple for the public exercises of religion.

---

R.C. Sproul clearly promotes the concept of "Holy space" in the last chapter of The Holiness of God, entitled "Holy Space & Holy Time", Sproul writes,

What I am saying, and what Sproul is teaching is NOT that a building, a physical structure nor a particular plot of ground is now INHERENTLY and ACTUALLY "sacred/holy". Rather, wherever the true people of God gather for worship, that place and time is sacred/holy. God is omnipresent to be sure and always has been, yet it is written how He has manifested Himself in a special way as well and particularly in places of worship, whether they were an earthen altar, in the desert, in a tent/tabernacle or a stone temple. And although no one particular place or physical structure is now designated as "holy", as is the belief of the Jews, nevertheless, places of true worship are "holy ground" and need to be recognized as such by giving due respect to them when worship is performed among the gathered saints.

Then there is the testimony of the WCF, Chapter XXI:

VI. Neither prayer, nor any other part of religious worship, is now, under the gospel, either tied unto, or made more acceptable by any place in which it is performed, or towards which it is directed:[27] but God is to be worshiped everywhere,[28] in spirit and truth;[29] as, in private families [30] daily,[31] and in secret, each one by himself;[32] so, more solemnly in the public assemblies, which are not carelessly or willfully to be neglected, or forsaken, when God, by his Word or providence, calleth thereunto.[33]

27. John 4:21
28. Mal. 1:11; I Tim. 2:8
29. John 4:23-24
30. Jer. 10:25; Deut. 6:6-7; Job 1:5; II Sam. 6:18, 20
31. Matt. 6:11; see Job 1:5
32. Matt. 6:6; 16-18; Neh. 1:4-11; Dan. 9:3-4a
33. Isa. 56:6-7; Heb. 10:25; Psa. 84:1-12; 100:4; 122:1, Luke 4:16; Acts 2:42; 13:42, 44


Yes, there are many today who would reject this view but I am not deterred in holding it as truth when understood correctly.