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#59380
Sat Apr 12, 2025 12:45 AM
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Needs to get a Life
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Needs to get a Life
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I thought this one deserved its own separate thread. As many might know, April 28th is Canadian election day. It appears like Liberal leader Mark Carney will win the election. Which, I believe is really bad for Canada, ethically, economically and it also is bad for Christianity. For example, the following has almost flown under the radar. Atheists have petitioned the Liberal government to take the tax exempt status off of over 55 % of charities , which includes all Churches. My understanding is if this goes through, many charities will go under. Regardless of the fact, many of these charities save the government millions of dollars every year. I could give details of what is at stake, however I don’t want this to get too long. The Conservative Party is the only party that does not want this to happen. Other than the PPC, which will be lucky to win a few seats. Something else that is very concerning, should Mark Carney and the Liberals win. Alberta is Canada’s most Conservative and resource rich province. The Premier of Alberta Danielle Smith, is fighting to be able to use those resources, yet Liberal Prime Minister Mark Carney, is mocking her and the left is calling her a traitor to Canada. I will give a link, to something concerning that matter. https://www.rebelnews.com/watch_jef...utm_medium=email&utm_source=therebelTom
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Head Honcho
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It is my concerted opinion that no true church should be tethered to the government for any reason, including tax exemption benefits. 1. Having government benefits ALWAYS means some form of government control including free speech. 2. If those who normally give tithes, offerings or gifts to a church and the tax exemption is removed and then stop giving because then cannot declare that money for a tax right off, then I'm afraid that this shows something amiss about that person's character and possible spiritual state.  Canada will get the Premier and government it deserves. On the whole, with exceptions of course, it is a godless and immorally disgusting nation and like all nations of the same ilk and persons alike, God has withheld his fiery wrath and judgment from them. Residents who are not happy with the situation and will doubtless suffer repression and even punishment for their faith can either stay and fight the system or move to a more open country where they can live out their lives in relative peace and freedom. That's life in a fallen world, Tom. God's will be done, eh? 
simul iustus et peccator
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Annie Oakley
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Annie Oakley
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The Chestnut Mare
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Old Hand
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Old Hand
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I also think you have to be mindful that the media propaganda seeks to shape the reality. I read that in Ukraine around 2014 a propaganda campaign spread turning the country very anti-Russia despite the fact that at least 40% of the country was very pro-Russia. I’m not suprised the anti-American campaign is ramping up but some of that is also the media fueling the fires. … On another Canada related note. One of the comments sounded like the things you’ve noted… (maybe if we just turn off the “news”, things won’t feel as bad as they are described despite the crazy folk running things)… https://heidelblog.net/2025/04/o-canada-an-americans-reflections-on-ministering-in-a-foreign-land/
Last edited by Anthony C.; Sat Apr 12, 2025 12:07 PM.
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Old Hand
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Old Hand
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If our choices are relegated between bad or worse, how can they ultimately lose? Manufacture Of Consent: Why Democracy Has A Major Mass-Media Problem Before Chomsky, there was Lippmann: the First World War and ‘manufactured consent.’
While the ‘manufacture of consent’ is an idea now mostly associated with Noam Chomsky, the phrase was actually coined by the US journalist and writer Walter Lippman in his influential book "Public Opinion" (1922) – a fact that Chomsky and Edward Herman, his co-author on "Manufacturing Consent" (1988), readily acknowledge.
Lippman contended that, because the world is too complex for any individual to comprehend, a strong society needs people and institutions specialized in collecting data and creating the most accurate interpretations of reality possible.
When used properly, this information should allow decision makers to ‘manufacture consent’ in the public interest. However, in one of the most damning critiques of democracy, Lippman identifies how public opinion is instead largely forged by political elites with self-serving interests – powerful people manipulating narratives to their own ends.
The power of the press in America is a primordial one. It sets the agenda of public discussion; and this sweeping political power is unrestrained by any law. It determines what people will talk and think about-an authority that in other nations is reserved for tyrants, priests, parties and mandarins.
Theodore White
Last edited by Anthony C.; Sat Apr 12, 2025 12:51 PM.
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Needs to get a Life
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Like you, I do not think anyone, or any Church should be tethered to the government. I also believe that a Christian who gives to the Church, solely so they can get a tax break. There is something wrong with them.
However, there is more at stake here than that. Charitable organizations, help thousands of people in dire need. They provide homeless shelters, food, help in drug and alcohol recovery, etc… If this goes through, many of those charities will no longer exist.
At present, in almost every city and town in Canada, homelessness is getting terrible. The last 4-5 years has seen a serge in that area. I do not believe governments should be in the welfare business. Now, with the real possibility of many charities being shut down. The situation is probably going to get worse.
Tom
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Head Honcho
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Head Honcho
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However, there is more at stake here than that. Charitable organizations, help thousands of people in dire need. They provide homeless shelters, food, help in drug and alcohol recovery, etc… If this goes through, many of those charities will no longer exist. Why? If someone sent money to me to be distributed to people in need that's where the money would to. Tax exemptions would have absolutely no negative affect on me. The inability of the donor to write off their contribution on their tax forms is where the issue lies and thus what I said and you agreed with the donor's reason for donating is questionable.
simul iustus et peccator
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Pilgrim Good question and one that I need to look into further.
What I do know is there are many charities that claim that if their tax exempt status was revoked, they could no longer operate.
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Needs to get a Life
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Pilgrim Thinking through these issues reminded me of an article. A Confessional and Biblical Apologetic for Tax Exemption for Churches
I. Theological Foundation: Christ’s Lordship Over All
Psalm 2:10–12 – “Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son…”
Colossians 1:18 – “And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.”
The Church is not a peripheral institution within the life of the nation—it is the visible manifestation of Christ’s Kingdom on earth. Christ is not merely King over the church; He is King over every nation, and the rulers of this world are accountable to Him. Any nation built on Christian foundations must therefore recognize the church not merely as a non-profit organization, but as a divine institution, whose authority and mission are from God Himself.
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II. The Church’s Divine Institution and Spiritual Authority
Westminster Confession of Faith 25.2 (also reflected in the Second London Baptist Confession of 1689): “The visible Church… consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion… and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, the house and family of God, out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation.”
The Church is not a voluntary association like a hobby club or social society—it is the very embassy of the Kingdom of God. As such, its ministry of Word and Sacrament carries a heavenly authority. To tax the church is to fail to recognize its divinely instituted function as an organ of grace and truth for the health of the nation. To revoke its tax exemption is to desacralize what God has ordained and commissioned.
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III. The Magistrate’s Duty to Protect and Not Undermine Religion
Romans 13:4 – “For he is God’s servant for your good…”
Isaiah 60:10–12 – “Foreigners shall build up your walls, and their kings shall minister to you… For the nation and kingdom that will not serve you shall perish.”
Civil government exists to uphold justice and order in society, but it does not do so neutrally—it does so under God. The Reformers were clear: the magistrate has a duty to protect the true church, not remain “neutral” as if neutrality were even possible. The idea of removing tax exemption from churches flows from a secularist vision of the state that sees religion as private, irrelevant, and even dangerous—a view entirely alien to Scripture and confessional Christianity.
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IV. The Practical Outworking of Religious Liberty
Matthew 22:21 – “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”
This oft-misused verse actually reinforces the separation of jurisdictions. The Church owes its allegiance to Christ, not Caesar. When Caesar imposes taxation on the Church, he is overreaching into a realm not given to him. While Christians must pay taxes (Rom. 13:6–7), the Church as a divine institution is not the same as the individual Christian citizen. A nation that taxes the church seeks to make the church accountable to the state, rather than to Christ—thus subverting the spiritual independence and authority of Christ’s Church.
The American First Amendment and Section 2 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms reflect a historic understanding that the free exercise of religion includes freedom from state entanglement, including taxation.
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V. Economic and Moral Contribution of Churches
Galatians 6:10 – “As we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.”
Acts 6:1–6 and Acts 4:34–35 demonstrate the early church’s diaconal ministry—feeding the poor, caring for widows, and providing economic help.
Churches are engines of mercy, operating food banks, shelters, addiction recovery programs, and counselling services. Studies (like those from Cardus and the Center for Faith-Based and Community Initiatives) show that for every dollar in tax relief, churches return 10 times that in community value. To remove tax exemption is not just spiritual folly—it is economic suicide, especially for a government already stretched to its financial limit.
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VI. The Consequences of Secularizing Policy
To remove tax exemption for churches is to signal that the state is the ultimate sovereign, and religion must serve it. This turns the state into an idol and repeats the error of pagan Rome, where Caesar demanded both taxes and worship.
Revelation 13 warns of a beastly state that seeks to dominate both commerce and worship. When churches are regulated, taxed, and inspected like corporations, it is not long before faithful preaching becomes regulated speech.
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VII. A Call to Resist the Secular Agenda
Psalm 11:3 – “If the foundations are destroyed, what can the righteous do?”
Isaiah 5:20 – “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil…”
Letting the secularists strip tax exemption from churches is not a bureaucratic matter—it is a spiritual war over what kind of nation we will be. If the Church is made subordinate to the state, then it is no longer the free bride of Christ. A nation that revokes such protections betrays its Christian foundations, and invites the judgment of God.
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Conclusion: Stand Firm in Confessional Courage
A Christian nation must not treat the Church as an accessory or a relic. She is the pillar and buttress of truth (1 Tim. 3:15), the salt and light (Matt. 5:13–16), and the only hope of eternal salvation (Acts 4:12). To tax and regulate her is to dishonor her Head—Christ.
Let us call our leaders to repentance and urge them to remember their duty before God. And let us resist with both courage and conviction any attempt to secularize what was built upon the Word of God.
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Chestnutmare Thanks for the link.
As listened to this, a lot of what he said, actually makes sense of why Trump favours the Carney Liberals over the Poilievre Conservatives.
I am not even a big fan of either Carney or Poilievre and at this point, probably will be voting for Maxime Bernier and the PPC.
That said however, there is a major point that was made. I have something that I use to decide who to vote for. Basically “policy over person or party”.
My point in bringing that up, is I look at the policies of candidates, quite closely before I vote for anyone. The Poilievre Conservatives and the Bernier PPC, both say they are against globalism. Particularly the globalism coming out of the World Economic Forum.
Yet, what was said in that podcast stands in contradiction to my research on Poilievre, concerning globalism.
Seeing that is a major point, unless I am missing something. I can’t agree with him about Poilievre.
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Old Hand
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Old Hand
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Interesting comment from the blog I linked…
“As someone who has served in the pastorate north of the border, you have a better read on the validity of your statement that Canadian secularism “has had little impact on my daily life” on your pastoral work.
However, I’d encourage you to look at the situation with the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church in Canada and the legal and ecclesiastical disruptions caused by the question of how to deal with COVID restrictions. The details are messy, and for that reason I don’t want to try to summarize them here. There are two sides to every story.
What can be said is that situation would not have happened in almost any US state, and the few states where it might have happened are well known as the farthest-left states in the US, and the courts have generally rebuked state and county governments that tried to do such things. What is correctly regarded as being extreme in the US appears to be becoming increasingly common north of the border — and it most emphatically IS affecting churches and denominations.
I’m well aware that the problems of government intrusion into ecclesiastical life are as bad, or sometimes much worse, in Britain and the Continent, let alone many non-Western countries. What’s important is that most Americans understand the difference between the US and Europe when it comes to legal matters. Many Americans wrongly think that the Canadians are just colder versions of US states, with a sprinkling of “ehs” and an accent. That’s simply not the case. Canada is a different country with different rules, and failing to understand that is problematic.”
Last edited by Anthony C.; Mon Apr 14, 2025 11:37 PM.
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Annie Oakley
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Annie Oakley
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Our sympathies are with you au Canada.
The Chestnut Mare
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I agree with those who thinks that Christians who give is doing it for the wrong reasons is wrong. Even Christians giving for the right reasons should not be upset if the government takes that away. However, I hear that some want to tax churches on their offerings (income) and church buildings. It that is done, then churches will be hurt greatly in what they provide for their congregations. There will have to be large cuts to their budgets. Now, that in itself should not interfere with the church mission in being the church of Christ.
John Chaney
"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
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Head Honcho
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Head Honcho
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Yes, a Christian can and hopefully often does give due to imputable motives. But joining the church with the government has no true benefit. Here are a few quotes regarding "liberty" which even a Deist like Benjamin Franklin which are worth heeding. The Church should NEVER barter away God-given freedom, liberty nor especially responsibility when truth and the living it out is concerned.
‘They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.’ ‘Without freedom of thought, there can be no such thing as wisdom – and no such thing as public liberty without freedom of speech.’ ‘God grant that not only the love of liberty but a thorough knowledge of the rights of man may pervade all the nations of the earth, so that a philosopher may set his foot anywhere on its surface and say: ‘This is my country.”
"We must obey God rather than men." - the Apostle Peter and apostles in Acts 5:29
And re: Canadian Election: It is incontrovertible that God ordained that Mark Carney should be Prime Minister. Fortunately, God determined not to bring immediate fiery judgment but allow Canadians time to repent and turn to Christ... and to that end that the true Church to be faithful in preaching the Gospel and for men to live holy lives.
simul iustus et peccator
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