The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum 'Visible/invisible' Church

Thanks for your contributions, chaps.
First of all, ekklesia. Etymologically, thois comes from two words, ek meaning 'out' and kaleo, meaning to call. It is that which is called out. Its secular meaning is seen in Acts 19, those who are called out to a meeting. In Acts 7:38, there is a reference to the ekklesia in the wilderness. This is the only time that the word is used with reference to the people of the Old Covenant. Elsewhere the are called 'Israel after the flesh' or somesuch description. In Acts 7:38, the reference is to those who were called out of Egypt into the wilderness, where God gave them a covenant. In just the same way, Christians are those who have been called out of the world (1John 2:15-17), and led by the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:12-14) through the wilderness of this world to the promised land, the City which hath foundations.

Only those who have been effectually called by God are in the ekklesia. You can go on with your human logic as long as you like, but you won't change the facts. To those who think they are in but whose hearts are not changed, our Lord will say, "I never knew you!" Not, "I knew you once but have rejected you," but I never knew you! Not when you were a baby having water splashed on you and a minister mumbling prayers over you, not when you sat in church, nor when you taught Sunday School or anything else you might have done, because your heart was never changed and you never left the world. Not at any time did I know you. You were never in the ekklesia , whatever you might have thought or been told."

Wes,
I'm sure you could have written a much better case or paedo-baptism than the article you posted.

'Children are included in every covenant God ever made with man.'
Not in the New Covenant, they're not (Jer 31:29ff). Nor are they included in the Abrahamic Covenant, which is an adumbration of the NC. 'Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham' (Gal 3:7- again!). Nor are they in the Davidic Covenant properly understood, but let that pass for the moment.

He quoted Acts 2:38-39; 'The promise is to you and your children and to all that are far off.' OK, what is the promise? That if they repent and are baptized, they will receive remission of sins and the Holy Spirit. Amen! The promise of the NC is, 'Whoever calls upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved.'

He went on, 'The Apostles did not set up a new organization.'
I can't think how he could write this with a straight face! Matt 21:43; Mark 13:2; Acts 6:14.

Finally, he quoted 1Cor 10:1ff (or was it Joe?). Gosh! Is this the covenant you are baptizing your children into? Where their bodies will fall in the wilderness, and they never reach the promised land? God forbid!

Joe posted an article by Gregg Strawbridge. He repeats that most egregious error of ascribing the Parable of the wheat and the tares to the Church, when Our Lord clearly states that it refers to the world. He must surely know how wrong this is; how can he and others keep trotting out this obvious and appalling falsehood. If paedo-baptism depends on this, then it's time to ring down the curtain on it.

He is also wrong on his Greek. I will come back on Matt 28:19 tomorrow, because its past my bedtime.

Blessings to all,
Steve