Hi Tom--

I just had to respond to your request because I am currently in a seeker-sensitive church (If you recall my prior posts that I am kind of "stuck" in this church because my husband is an elder there - basically right now I would say our theology is different and I am more or less "reformed" and he is not). So I will just speak from experience. I also used to attend Willow Creek church about 10-15 years ago for a while (only 45 minutes from where I lived). I didn't become a member but was just going with some friends at the time. So I'm pretty well "immersed" in this. I definately can't say God isn't ever working at all in these churches, however, you are correct in the real gospel message rarely being preached. I have grown in my faith more through the parachurch organizations - Youth For Christ and InterVarsity - God has used these in my life more than my local church. This is where I've heard more real truth (and obviously mostly from the main source - Scripture). In my current church right now my pastor rarely (or never)uses the words "Sin", "Holy Spirit", "Repentance", "Born Again" up front. I actually receive and learn more from Irwin Lutzer on WMBI than from my church. At least Lutzer preaches more real gospel. I really question if he's (my pastor) born again himself because he doesn't even talk about these things. Now he does say some good things here and there. And so does Willow Creek. Bill Hybels is an excellent communicator and actually has some great messages (but probably not about TULIP -- I can't specifically remember). After attending that church my impression was that it's too much into the world. Yes they don't have any debt on their buildings (and it's in Barrington which is got very rich people living there) but it's just this "materialistic" feel there. And I don't think they support missionaries around the world either. Their "missions" vision is to start other "willow creek" churches in other countries - which they currently have. I have a problem with this kind of "missions" vision. As far as I know people in that church are not being trained or encouraged to go on the mission field (long-term). What a difference between that and the vision of InterVarsity. So there's another thing "missing" in the seeker-sensitive churches it seems-- emphasis on the missionaries and getting the word out to the ones who haven't heard it. (of course now I see the connection -- that if the theology is not in total depravity then there naturally will not be an emphasis to get the word out to the people who don't have the gospel). It is not a big important thing in my current church either (emphasis on world missions). Now I do know that Rick Warren's church emphasizes short-term missions so that's a start. Speaking of Rick Warren, I'm currently immersed in the whole Purpose Driven Life thing too. Our church just finished the PDL campaign. I went through it and further analyzed the book and the verses used from "The Message" translation from Eugene Peterson. I can't figure out the popular use of The Message. Yes there is more biblical illiteracy (and this must explain The Message's popularity) in the seeker-sensitive churches.) It is a struggle for me to not go in that direction myself. I have to go outside of my church to get the support I need (ie. I am currently going to be attending a women's bible study at another church in the fall and I was in a different study this year with a neighbor (who went to a South Baptist Church) this past year). I said before in a prior thread several weeks ago that one (who is reformed) will feel "empty" at a "seeker sensitive church" and it's because most are just not serious about the truth. Things are watered down - from the sermons to SUnday School in various degrees. (even my husband doesn't like the SS curriculum). Some churches are probably worse than others depending who's in charge. I think I recognize all of what's missing simply because I've read the Scriptures and I know what's truth. I can just kind of "sense" when things aren't really from God -- this is my discernment and the Holy Spirit talking. I thank God I have this because I myself would be "sucked" away possibly. I think this is where my husband is. I also thank the Lord for the body of Christ and that I don't have to just rely on my local church. God works elsewhere and that's where I go and my kids too (I have my oldest son in Awana at another church). Oh by the way my pastor is leaving in August to start another church. He is going to start a church ministering to "postmoderns". We'll see who comes along next as our pastor. Sorry if I've rambled on, and I'm not sure if that really give you any help Tom but I do agree with you that the important message is missing in most of these churches. I agree with John McArthur and what he has to say about the seeker-sensitive churches - he is right on. Have you read his books speaking against these churches?? Please continue to pray for my situation and that I am more bold in trying to get some in my church to see what I see. That is the tough part for me right there because it brings up conflict. Also (on a general note) there is more of a soft issue of sin in people's lives. A higher standard is not taught. In my church it's like the leaders and elders will say yes to holy living -- but then it's not really taught the way it should be (except for one elder). The idea that if one just prays the sinners prayer and is baptized means they are saved no matter what. The whole issue of being "born Again" - regeneration -- never discussed in the circles I'm in at my church. (And the only conclusion I can come to is if someone doesn't see this then are they born again???? - that sounds kind of judgmental, but it's what I really think) I would say that is another big difference there. The definition of regeneration - being born again is different in the seeker sensitive churches (on the whole). The importance of holy living is not really emphasized -- it's like it's just a secondary thing and something to be hoped for. This thinking says -- Oh well if you drop the ball and sin remember you've sincerely prayed that sinners prayer and that means you are born again and going to heaven and so it doesn't matter because this is what Jesus died for. This mentality is there with some people I personally know in my church. They just don't see it.