The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Response to 'Tongues-Nonsense and Martyn Lloyd-Jon

Pilgrim said: What Gaffin holds to, as do I, and which Poythress tries to bend into an acceptable shape which both sides can appreciate, is that the revelatory gifts i.e., the direct communication of God to individuals has ceased, but the gifts of the Spirit which are appropriate for upbuilding the saints, e.g., illumination of the Scriptures continue within those who are called to serve in the official positions of the Church, e.g., Pastor, Teacher, Evangelist.

“I could tell as many as a dozen similar cases in which I pointed at somebody in the hall without having the slightest knowledge of the person, or any idea that what I said was right, except that I believed I was moved by the Spirit to say it; and so striking has been my description, that the persons have gone away, and said to their friends, ‘Come, see a man that told me all things that ever I did.' "

Pilgim writes:
"The problem is, which I have myriad times mentioned and asked for a rebuttal of, which has never come forth is that what Grudem and those who hold to a similar tenuous position insist upon is that source of these "fallible gifts" is God Who speaks directly. If it is truly, "Thus saith the LORD...", then by the very nature of the communication it cannot be fallible. Grudem tries to argue that somehow this "infallible" word of communication gets corrupted when it is finally set forth by the recipient.

John Piper writes:
"First, here are some arguments for treating the gift of prophecy as valid for today—based on something that God brings to mind, but not necessarily understood or reported infallibly.

In Acts 2:17 Peter explains the event of Pentecost by quoting the prophet Joel:

And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.

So here is a statement of what the last days (our days!) will be like. It appears that prophecy will be not so much an office as a widespread experience of men and women.

In 1 Corinthians 14:1-4 Paul says to the whole church:

Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. 2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3 On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation [that is what the gift of prophecy is supposed to do]. 4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church.

This certainly sounds like prophecy is not the prerogative a fixed group of authoritative founders of the church, but of the body in general. And the ministry of prophecy is simply described as: it upbuilds, encourages, and consoles.

1 Corinthians 14:29-32 says:

Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. 30 If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets.

Here two crucial things are said: one is that a prophecy is based on a “revelation”. Verse 30: “If a revelation is made to another . . . let the first be silent.” This is why I say that the gift of prophecy is based on something God brings to mind. It is not exactly the same as teaching, which is based on the exposition of a text. It is based on God bringing something more immediately to mind.

But then verse 29 says, “Let the other weigh (diakrinetosan) what is said.” This is very interesting! It does not focus attention on whether the person speaking is a “true prophet” or not. It is not saying what Jesus said, “You will recognize them by their fruits” (Matthew 7:15-16). It focuses on “what is said.” And the idea is: view it with some mild skepticism. I say that because the word (weigh: diakrinetosan) regularly has that connotation. In other words, check it out, assess it. Which means that the gift of prophecy the way Paul encouraged its wide use did not have final, decisive authority. The Scriptures did. Paul’s own inspired words were decisive, not any claim to divine revelation through the gift of prophecy. “If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. 38 If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized” (1 Corinthians 14:37).

We find the same thing in 1 Thessalonians 5:20-21, “Do not despise prophecies, 21 but test everything; hold fast what is good.” In other words it sounds as if some of what comes by way of prophecies is good—hold fast to that—and some is not—let that go. In other words the gift of prophecy is not in the same category with Scripture. It is under Scripture and tested by Scripture, and is spiritual wisdom informed by Scripture.

In 1 Corinthians 13 Paul warns against misusing spiritual gifts in a loveless way. In verse 8-10 he says, “Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.” In the context the coming of “the perfect” is almost certainly the second coming of Christ because verse 12 says, “Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.” That will happen at the second coming of Christ. The implication then is that the partial and imperfect gifts of prophecy and tongues and knowledge will last until Christ returns.

One more observation on this view: 1 Corinthians 14:1 says to the church, “Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.” So all of us are told to earnestly desire especially to prophesy. This would not make sense, it seems to me, if the gift only applied to a limited group of men who spoke with Scripture-level authority. But it would make really good sense if prophecy were a gift that any believer could use to offer Spirit-timed insights that God brings to mind for each other’s good.

So for these reasons I am persuaded that the gift of prophecy is valid for today and is not equal with Scripture in authority but is valuable as a Spirit-guided expression of something we otherwise would not know or say, which is powerful for that particular moment and brings conviction or exhortation or consolation for the awakening or upbuilding of faith. It should not spook us as something uncontrollable, but should be treated as any claim to insight. It is fallible. It may prove true and it may not because the human channel is sinful and fallible and finite."

Sam Storms writes:"Epiphanius, perhaps the most vocal opponent of the Montanists, did not attack them because they practiced the gifts of the Spirit. Indeed, he declared that "the charism [of prophecy] is not inoperative in the church. Quite the opposite. . . . The holy church of God welcomes the same [charisms] as the Montanists, but ours are real charisms, authenticated for the church by the Holy Spirit" (Panarion, 48)."