Donations for the month of October


We have received a total of "$0" in donations towards our goal of $175.


Don't want to use PayPal? Go HERE


Forum Search
Member Spotlight
Johan
Johan
South Africa
Posts: 330
Joined: October 2006
Forum Statistics
Forums30
Topics7,294
Posts53,241
Members964
Most Online523
Jan 14th, 2020
Top Posters
Pilgrim 14,042
Tom 4,043
chestnutmare 3,086
J_Edwards 2,615
Wes 1,856
John_C 1,818
RJ_ 1,583
MarieP 1,579
gotribe 1,060
Top Posters(30 Days)
Pilgrim 21
Tom 8
Robin 5
Johan 3
Readin 2
Meta4 1
Recent Posts
Your opinion please
by Johan - Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:03 AM
True of False
by NetChaplain - Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:26 PM
Natural Theology 2
by Pilgrim - Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:41 PM
Natural Theology
by Pilgrim - Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:10 AM
Mandatory Vaccines
by Robin - Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:21 AM
Progressive Christianity
by Readin - Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:39 AM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
Thank you for the link. I've copied part and paste it here:

Calvin had Servetus arrested when he came to Geneva, and appeared as his accuser. He wanted him to be condemned to death, but not to death by burning. On August 20, 1553, Calvin wrote to Farel: "I hope that Servetus will be condemned to death, but I desire that he should be spared the cruelty of the punishment" -- he means that of fire. Farel replied to him on September 8th: "I do not greatly approve that tenderness of heart," and he goes on to warn him to be careful that "in wishing that the cruelty of the punishment of Servetus be mitigated, thou art acting as a friend towards a man who is thy greatest enemy. But I pray thee to conduct thyself in such a manner that, in future, no one will have the boldness to publish such doctrines, and to give trouble with impunity for so long a time as this man has done."
Calvin did not, on this account, modify his own opinion, but he could not make it prevail. On October 26th he wrote again to Farel: "Tomorrow Servetus will be led out to execution. We have done our best to change the kind of death, but in vain. I shall tell thee when we meet why we had no success." (Opera, XIV, pp. 590, 613-657).

Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
Greetings Dave,

No your comparison between Calvin and the apostle Paul is not valid for this discussion.

I'll agree that if this alleged "Calvin sanctioning the burning of Servetus" occurred BEFORE Calvin wrote his doctrine and then Calvin repented his actions and received his doctrine from the Holy Spirit, your point would then be valid. That is not the sequence of events with Calvin, but certainly was the case with the apostle Paul.

I hope I have explained to your satisfaction.

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 406
Addict
Offline
Addict
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 406
Quote
I'll agree that if this alleged "Calvin sanctioning the burning of Servetus" occurred BEFORE Calvin wrote his doctrine and then Calvin repented his actions and received his doctrine from the Holy Spirit, your point would then be valid. That is not the sequence of events with Calvin, but certainly was the case with the apostle Paul.

(Fred) Again, 1saved, you are displaying a lot of general ignorance about the events surrounding Calvin.

First, how do you know he didn't "repent" of his actions with Servetus. That is speculative.

Secondly, you tend to remove his consent from the historical context where the events took place. In Calvin's time, it was upholding the law to execute heretics, Sevetus being the Kingpin heretic of his day.

Third, Calvin did not develop the doctrine (I take it that you mean the 5 points) that bears his name. That happened 4 to 5 decades past his death.

Fourth, the Bible teaches those doctrines as they are systematized into 5 points. I do not believe them because I follow Calvin (I have only read scant portions of his institues).

Fifth, Paul sanctioned slavery in his epistles. Is he a false teacher because he told slaves to submit to their masters? Manstealing is just a much a condemned sin as murder, is it not?

My boss, Phil Johnson, a few years ago wrote an excellent response on another message board to similar accusations concerning Calvin and Servetus. It would be good to post his reponse here:

There are only two actual historical cases of any significance where anti-Calvinist dissidents were put to death for their beliefs in Geneva during the time of John Calvin's ministry there.

These represent the sum total of all existing "proof" that Calvin was a ruthless tyrant who put people to death merely for disagreeing with him. Here's the truth of the matter: when the facts about these two cases are examined, it becomes clear that Calvin's opponents have distorted the facts for propagnda purposes.

MICHAEL SERVETUS (1553)

Modern Catholics and Arminians love to try to tag Calvin
personally with the responsibility of killing Michael Servetus. But Calvin's position in Geneva was only as the city's spiritual leader. He had no dictatorial powers, and he certainly was not the sort of thundering, murderous tyrant many Catholics, Arminians, and Anabaptists would like to portray. In fact, he had regular run-ins with the city's civil leaders. He was by no means the one calling the shots when Servetus was executed. Alister McGrath's
biography _A life of John Calvin_ (Oxford: Basil Blackwell Ltd., 1990), p. 116, says this: "Servetus was the _only_ individual put to death for his religious opinions in Geneva during Calvin's lifetime, at a time when executions of this nature were commonplace elsewhere." McGrath includes a lengthy section on the Servetus episode that is instructive.

Why Calvin so often is painted as a demon for this episode is mystifying. It was the Genevan Council (the civil magistrates), not Calvin, who "ordered that Servetus be burned alive. Calvin asked for a milder form of death for the heretic, but did not gain his point" [S. M. Houghton, _Sketches from Church History_(Edinburgh: Banner of Truth, 1980), 109.] Calvin's only role in the fiasco was that he approved of execution as a fit punishment for heresy (as did virtually everyone else in that era). He specifically gave approval for Servetus's execution, but he pleaded for a merciful form of execution. Other than that, he did
not participate in the event.

A point of historical interest: Servetus was already under penalty of death from the Roman Catholic Church before Geneva executed him. Roland Bainton noted, "Servetus would have expiated [his heresies] at the stake in Catholic France had he not escaped and paid the same penalty in Protestant Geneva" [_The Reformation of the Sixteenth Century_ (Boston: Beacon, 1952), p. 136]. Servetus
had previously been informed by Genevan authorities that the city would offer no refuge to a heretic such as he. He chose to come anyway, preferring to take his chances with the Calvinists rather than face the Papal inquisitors.

Of course, all those facts do not excuse Calvin. Approving of Servetus's death was one of the biggest mistakes he ever made in his life, and his enemies have used it against him right down to the current day. But his friends have also been quick to acknowledge that "Calvin was certainly at fault, not of course in opposing the heresy of Servetus--he exposed it thoroughly--but in accepting the widely-held belief of the age that heretics should be put to death" [Houghton, p. 109].

Remember, though, this _was_ the belief commonly held by virtually all sides in that age, and not something unique to Calvinism. Those who try to haul out the ashes of Servetus as an argument against Calvinism will find those ashes quickly blow away when held out in the open.


Fred


"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
Thank you brother, Kyle.

This website has a very long dissertation on the events surrounding both Calvin and Servetus. I stopped before reading a third of the material. I found this, however:

The way from Vienne or Toulouse, where he may have gone first, leads through Grenoble, Modane, and Turin. Why then such a wearisome detour? Moreover he had every reason to avoid Geneva because Calvin had warned him for many years. As early as 1546, he wrote to Farel that should Servetus come to Geneva he would not leave alive, provided his authority was still respected. From the connection of the letter, I conclude he must have written to Servetus in like manner. According to the documents of the trial, Servetus. seemed to be of the opinion that Calvin himself served notice on him in Vienne.



The testimony above says the official documents of the trial of Servetus may imply something different than what Dr. Horton wrote, i.e. there is no official trial record of malice toward Servetus by Calvin. I'm hoping Dr. Horton or a representative of his will clarify this apparent conflicting testimony between Hunt and Dr. Horton.

Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
King David immediately repented his sin after the prophet Nathan showed him his error. Nevertheless, God could not overlook David's sin and punished David by causing adversity against him from his own house by taking away his wives and killing his son. 2 Samuel 12:1-15

How is this argument germane? Are you defending the alleged "Calvin sanctioning the burning of Servetus" by referring to David's sin, as somehow justifiable?

If so, please provide the logic, for I do not see it at all and therefore cannot point out any other errors I may find in it.

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,042
Likes: 13
Head Honcho
Online Content
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,042
Likes: 13
Quote
except, as I recall my history, the 5 points were drawn from Calvin's teachings yes, but they were done so after his death to make arguing with the Arminians a little easier.
Well, let me enlighten you just a bit more for your edification and to set the historical record before you. "Calvinism" existed a millennium before Calvin was born. Augustine, was one of the first to bring these doctrines to the public arena in his disputes with Pelagius. They were held by many others during the time of Augustine and even before... obviously being taught by the Apostles and even Jesus Christ Himself. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

As to the infamous "Five Points", there are "5" because it was the followers of Arminius who posited "5" articles of disagreement to the church; aka: Remonstrants. At the Synod of Dordtrect, between the years of 1618-1619, for 18 months the representatives of the Reformed Churches, to which these dissenters were also members and office-bearers, deliberated and searched the Scriptures concerning these "Five Points". At the end of the day, the vote was unanimous against the Remonstrants. And, the reply given was formulated in keeping with the original "Five Points". This is why there are 5 points of Calvinism.

See here: The Canons of the Synod of Dordt.

Also, if you haven't done so, you should download the free reference program which contains many of the great Evangelical Creeds and Reformed Confessions for many denominations. You can do so here: Refcon3 Info Page.

In His Grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
Greetings BrimstonePreacha,

I quoted the definitions for 'sanction', 'fruit' and 'tree' from the same source, i.e. Funk & Wagnalls Standard College Dictionary, copyrights 1963, 1966, 1968, Funk & Wagnalls, New York.

I didn't choose the word 'sanction', Dr. MacArthur did. I deliberately included all the pertinent definitions from the dictionary, to avoid anyone accussing me of bias.

As to who Dr. Horton is and what his credentials are, you can find them with his article on this website. Dr. Horton was vice-chairman of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals when he wrote the article in 1992. I don't know anything about Dr. Horton, but because I know and respect the teaching of Dr. James M. Boice who was chairman of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals at the same time as Dr. Horton, I have agreed with Pilgrim that Dr. Horton is a "notable Calvinist."

Let's make every effort to not disparage the reputation of our brothers, as we try to determine the truth as to whether or not "Calvin sanctioned the burning of Servetus."

I may be wrong, but it seems you don't really care whether Calvin did or did not "sanction the burning of Servetus?" In fact, by your last paragraph you seem to say that you also "sanction the burning of Servetus." Am I correct?

Have you ever seen the movie "A Few Good Men" starring Jack Nicholson and Tom Cruise? You sound a lot to me like the character Jack Nicholson played. At the end of the movie Tom Cruise interrogates Jack Nicholson and asks him, "Did you order the code red?!!!" To which Nicholson replied, "You're d****d right I did, because it probably saved lives."

Have you ever considered Who is really in control? Have you trusted Him in faith? Scripture says, "Judge not, that you be not judged. For by what measure you judge, you will be judged, and the measure you use, it will be measured back to you." Matthew 7:1,2 NKJV and "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets." Matthew 7:12 NKJV

Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
Brother Fred,

I'm no expert on logic, but I believe the statement I made was: 1)The burning of Servetus would have to have been BEFORE Calvin wrote his doctrine AND 2)Calvin would have to have repented AND 3)Calvin would have to have received his doctrine from the in-dwelling Holy Spirit.

All three statements would have to be true before I would agree with using Paul as a comparison to Calvin in this instance. If I had written OR, then you would have a point.

Fred, why don't you take this entire matter to Dr. MacArthur and tell us what is his response? I'm sure we would all be very interested to know what Dr. MacArthur meant when he wrote, "John Calvin sanctioned the burning of Michael Servetus, an arch-heretic who was condemned by both Catholics and Calvinists for his anti-trinitarianism."

This was the very reason for my posting this discussion, other I had to start a new topic to avoid the moderator deleting anything further I wrote in reply to the previous thread. Therefore, I started this discussion reluctantly, but was determined to find out the truth.

Is there something wrong with finding out the truth? If so, please explain it to me. I say God is TRUTH. When you are searching for the truth, you are seeking God. Therefore, there is nothing wrong with finding out the truth! Do you all agree with me on that?

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 406
Addict
Offline
Addict
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 406
Quote
I'm no expert on logic, but I believe the statement I made was: 1)The burning of Servetus would have to have been BEFORE Calvin wrote his doctrine AND 2)Calvin would have to have repented AND 3)Calvin would have to have received his doctrine from the in-dwelling Holy Spirit.

Lets look at your logic then, point by point.

1)The burning of Servetus would have to have been BEFORE Calvin wrote his doctrine

It may be helpful for you to explain what you mean by "doctrine." Do you mean specifically the 5 points? If yes, then the formation of Calvins doctrine took place long after both Servetus and Calvin were dead. If no, then I need you to tell me what doctrine you have in mind.

2)Calvin would have to have repented

Who is to say that Calvin did not, that we just haven't heard about it?

3)Calvin would have to have received his doctrine from the in-dwelling Holy Spirit.

Calvin did receive his doctrine from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, because the Bible affirms the doctrine he taught. The spirit can not lie against the truth of scripture, thus, Calvin did receive his doctrine from the Spirit.

Quote
All three statements would have to be true before I would agree with using Paul as a comparison to Calvin in this instance.

(Fred) As far as we know, all three points are true with regards to Calvin, thus, the comparison with Paul, particularly the one I raised in which Paul sanctions the keeping of slaves is legitimate.

Fred


"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
Brother Fred,

One step at a time, please. Do not read into something what isn't there nor try to guess someone else's motives.

You reinforced the testimony I gave, because you work for Dr. MacArthur and are therefore an obvious witness as to whether or not John wrote this book. You also have testified, by implication, you agree the quote provided is accurate and that the theme of the book is as I described.

There are those who would delay the truth-finding process by 1)questioning whether Dr. MacArthur wrote the book, then 2)questioning whether I quoted him accurately, then 3)questioning whether the book's theme is as I described it, then 4) demand the entire book be posted so they can see whether or not I took Dr. MacArthur's statements out of context.

To get agreement established on the first three points may have taken a week or more and on the fourth, more than a month. You reduced the process to one day. Thank you again.

No, I checked by Emails and I have still not received a reply from Joe. I assure you the answer is there in Ephesians 1 and can be readily discerned directly from the text of Scripture using legitimate hermeneutics and exegesis as established by the ICBI. You should pay close attention to the prounouns Paul used and keep in mind that Jesus said, "Many are called, but few are chosen (elected)." You can also read what I wrote in reply to conditional perseverance, but I must still wait for Joe to reply to my private message before I say anymore in fairness to him.

By the way, Fred. Do you know Dr. Horton and do you think he might give more information to this discussion forum to help us determine the truth?

Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
Brother Fred,
By what you say, Calvin had no "doctrine", since the Calvinist "doctrines" weren't officially compiled until after Calvin's death. Thus, Calvinist doctrine didn't come from Calvin, by your definition of "doctrine." Right?

Does it matter that Calvin wrote books on theology, but didn't name the books 'My Doctrine'? When did Calvin write his books on theology, before or after the burning of Michael Servetus? Who influenced what he wrote? Augustine or the Holy Spirit?

I looked up "doctrine" in my Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Dictionary, edited by Ronald F. Youngblood, copyright 1995, 1986 by Thomas Nelson Publishers on page 363, I quote:

"Doctrine -- a body of beliefs about God, humankind, Christ, the church, and other related concepts considered authoritative and thus worthy of acceptance by all members of the community of faith."

I'll accept this definition of doctrine, so long as you accept that the words "considered authoritative" does not mean the body of beliefs are "absolutely authoritative" or "unquestionably authoritative."

You may consider all your doctrine to be authoritative and your brother, another born-again Christian, may not consider all your doctrine to be authoritative. In fact, your born again Christian brothers, are obligated to point out the error in your doctrine, as they are led by the Holy Spirit.

Dr. John MacArthur wrote a little book entitled, "Why One Way?", copyright 2002, W Publishing Group. Have you read it? Do you agree with him? On page 26, Dr. MacArthur says:

"Authentic Christianity has always held that Scripture is absolute, objective truth. It is as true for one person as it is for another, regardless of anyone's opinion about it. It has one true meaning that applies to everyone. It is God's Word to humanity, and its true meaning is determined by God; it is not something that can be shaped to fit the preferences of individual hearers."

Assuming you agree with Dr. MacArthur, do you suggest that only Calvinists are saved, because only Calvinists know and follow Calvinist doctrine. If yes, was no one saved before John Calvin? If yes, then how could Calvin have been saved, since Calvinist doctrine wasn't compiled until long after his death?

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 281
Addict
Offline
Addict
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 281
Well, I will respond to some of what you said here.

What I was trying to get across with my post, was that while we don't know the means by which Paul turned that man over to Satan, it was for the destruction of the flesh... because "a little leaven leavens the whole lump."

I don't know anything about the executions of the followers of Arminius, so I cannot comment on it.

As for your exhortation to make sure I don't phrase my post in a "teaching manner" I am going to ignore it. You are not my husband, nor my pastor. I have no reason to "obey" you, much less even listen to you.

I don't recall us agreeing in the past either. If I did, it's cool, I just don't remember.

Do I agree that Servetus should have been executed? I don't know.. I live in post modern western society. I think if I lived back then, under the severe persecution that the reformists were enduring, I may have another opinion. I may love the truth of the Word, the Word of God more than I do today.

You know, the thing is, John Calvin did not throw himself on the fire and try and cut Servetus free. We know that he sanctioned the execution. It seems he did not sanction the means by which he was executed. Either way, who cares? What is your point? Are you saying that you have never done anything "sinful" since you were saved? If in fact you have been saved? Be careful not to hold yourself up as a teacher.. they are held to a stricter judgement. You keep saying that a "tree" should not bear "ANY" bad fruit whatsoever. I would say that you are using such confused logic, and your posts are so confusing (even to me.. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/moron.gif" alt="" />) that the one verse that comes to mind, is that God is not the author of confusion. That is not good fruit.

Also, you tried to qualify "fruit" for us. Well, the Bible TELLS us what fruit is. It IS the fruit of the Spirit. Plain and simple.

Anyway, the baby is crying and dinner is almost done.. gotta make the salad.

Michele

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,043
Likes: 1
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life
Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,043
Likes: 1
1saved

If I was you I would stay as far away from Hunt's writing and teaching as possible. He has proved himself to be very unreliable. In fact despite some of his friends (Calvinists and non-Calvinists) urging for him to correct obvious errors in his book before going to publication, he kept these errors in.
One of these errors of course is his saying that CH Spurgeon was not a Calvinist. That is laughable for anyone who has done any serious reading of Spurgeon.
Hunt of course says in defense of his keeping this false information in his book. (Not exact words) That his opinion is that Spurgeon wasn't a Calvinist, regardless of whether or not others claim he was.

If there is one thing I know beyond a shadow of doubt, is that Spurgeon was a Calvinist, to say otherwise is delusional.
I have focused on Spurgeon, not because there aren't many other falsities in Hunt's book, but because in my opinion it is the most glaring.

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,043
Likes: 1
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life
Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,043
Likes: 1
1saved

Do you except the writing of King David as being part of the canon of Scripture?
If yes, why? Don't you know that he was both a murderer and an adulterer.

Tom

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,043
Likes: 1
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life
Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,043
Likes: 1
1saved

Perhaps you have missed something.
Calvin did not sanction the burning of Servetus, he sanctioned the execution of Servetus. He argued for a more humane form of execution.
Also, I would like to point out that almost every Christian of that time would be in agreement of Calvin in have Servetus executed.
I guess, you would lump every single one of them as not having the Holy Spirit.

Tom

Page 2 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6

Link Copied to Clipboard
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 92 guests, and 22 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
atdcross, NetChaplain, winslowlady, Zach, Daverogk
964 Registered Users
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
October
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Today's Birthdays
There are no members with birthdays on this day.
Popular Topics(Views)
1,293,193 Gospel truth